Dentology Podcast with Ashley Latter

Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Ashley Latter

Episode Release Date: Monday 5 August 2024

Andy & Chris (00:01.062)
Whenever we get a returning guest, it’s always quite nice, isn’t it? It’s always like speaking to an old friend. It is. It’s like the part two, the pas deux, or whatever they call it, of conversation. And yeah, it’ll be interesting to develop it further, I think, as they say. It will be. It will be. So ladies and gentlemen, we’re very fortunate. We have Ashley Latter join us again. Ashley’s an author, an experienced business trainer and coach. Welcome back, Ashley. How are you?

Ashley Simon Latter (00:25.019)
Yeah, good Andy, Chris. Yeah, not bad at all. Thank you. My voice is a bit croaky, but besides that, I’m great. Thank you.

Andy & Chris (00:32.87)
Well, that’s the byproduct of being a successful trainer who’s always out training teams and lecturing and talking. I hope you’ve got some lubrication just in case.

Ashley Simon Latter (00:40.283)
It is, I think I’ve… Yeah! I’ve got plenty of water.

Andy & Chris (00:46.118)
Exactly and for those regular listeners will recognize actually sports because he’s been with us before back in February so as episode 131 if you wanted to listen back to that and you hear the background of Ashley and the introduction to him but we wanted to do a part two to basically just dig in a bit deeper around discussing fees because it’s such a critical part of dentistry We’ve wanted to kind of dig a bit further and see he is the Meister. He is the Meister exactly exactly just

Let’s start with Ashley. I guess slightly provocative. Do dentists value themselves?

Ashley Simon Latter (01:23.771)
Wow, what a question.

So this is a massive generalisation.

and I’m only 30 years experience of training and coaching dentists all over the world. And the simple answer is yes and no. Obviously some do, but I think a lot of them don’t, and they don’t think about the value that they actually bring to a patient’s lives. And if they sat down and analyzed it, I think in more detail, I think they’d have a different opinion about themselves. And I think…

Andy & Chris (01:56.134)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (02:03.334)
Hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (02:06.715)
which I’m sure we’ll go into today. But they get, I’m trying to think of the word here and bear with me because I have done a lot of speaking and lecturing recently so I am a bit worn out and tired this morning. But I think they get battered a lot by patients and the press or perceived patients or the press. So I’ll give you an example.

Andy & Chris (02:26.246)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (02:29.894)
Mm -hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (02:36.251)
They, they.

This happens all the time. So we, dentists will say, you know, they’ll honestly openly admit on my courses that this is an area that they do struggle. They do struggle discussing fees. And when we dig down into it, it can be a bit of a therapy session sometimes, but when we dig really deep into it, it could be a sarcastic comment that Mrs. Jones made three years ago.

Andy & Chris (02:53.19)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (02:57.734)
Hahaha.

Ashley Simon Latter (03:09.531)
when she turned around aggressively and said, I’m a paying for your holiday or car, when a fee was quoted to Mrs. Jones. And that tends to live with the dentist. So, you know, and they, now Mrs. Jones could be, you know, it could just be one patient who just made one really nasty comment.

Andy & Chris (03:19.64)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (03:36.774)
Mm. Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (03:39.323)
But then what happens is they pick up on it and they remember every little sarky comment like you know or every phrase or every Negative body language a patient gives them when they quote a fee and when you analyze it You know and I always say to a dentist, you know, how many times in a year do you discuss fees? And you know, you know seven eight ten times a day. I said, well, okay, so ten times a day fifty times

Andy & Chris (03:54.31)
Hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (04:08.635)
50 times in a week and times by how many weeks you work, you’re quoting a lot of fees, could be thousands of times. And you always remember the two or three sarcic comments. And you forget about the 99 .9 % of patients who will just pay you a fee and are happy to do so and are grateful for what you’ve done for them. But they tend to remember the two or three or four patients. Now one…

Andy & Chris (04:15.142)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (04:22.341)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (04:30.542)
Hmm. Hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (04:38.715)
could have been saying it nastily and two or three said it sarcastically, you know, and I just said, yeah. And it sits with them. So there’s the long -winded answer to a very short question. And it sits with them and they just can’t seem to let go. Is the answer.

Andy & Chris (04:43.494)
Yeah, so they could have just been taking a piss, couldn’t they really? But it sits there, yeah.

Andy & Chris (04:57.446)
I think a human condition is…

We all have a negativity bias, don’t we? I think if something happens that’s not in our favour, we tend to hang on to that way longer and it sits a lot deeper than those things that go well. So I guess from that, it sounds like there is a link between how dentists value themselves and their comfort to discuss fees. Because if this little thing’s sitting on their shoulder all the time and it’s kind of chirping away in their ear, that is going to influence how they feel about discussing fees.

Ashley Simon Latter (05:02.363)
Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (05:29.051)
Well, what happens is, guys, is, it’s a great question by the way, but what happens is, is that they think everyone is focused on this, and then they start discounting in their head.

Andy & Chris (05:38.054)
Mm. Mm.

Andy & Chris (05:42.438)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Was that fiscal cranial drag? Wasn’t it? Or something, yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (05:45.563)
And it’s a very, very, yeah, it’s a very, very common thing. And I would put it to you that for every course that I deliver, and I’m delivering, I deliver one two -day ethical sales and communication course, I would say every week. So 42, 43 weeks a year, I’m delivering this two -day course. And I would tell you at least half the dentists in the room would put their hands up and say, yeah, I’d discount on a regular basis. It’s a lot of discount being given.

Andy & Chris (06:10.438)
but don’t tell the client. Wow, and is there a, in your time, have you noticed a difference in younger dentists, older dentists? Is it sort of, is there an age, a demographic or anything that’s sort of, you know, you can sort of say, yeah, young people, they’re better at it or they’re worse at it or not really.

Ashley Simon Latter (06:32.251)
I know I wouldn’t say not really, I think it’s just right across the board. I think…

think possibly who they work with, if they’re an associate, who they work with possibly could have some common denominator. But no, I don’t think it’s… The only thing I would say is if they are a more mature dentist is that it’s cost them a lot more than obviously they’re young dentist. Because they’ve had…

Andy & Chris (06:44.038)
Mm. Mm.

Andy & Chris (07:01.062)
And is it harder? Is it harder with the teach an old dog new tricks? Is it harder to get them to see and make a change or not really?

Ashley Simon Latter (07:13.147)
No, we can get them to make a change because what I do is, I mean, I spend hours on this, on the program, but we go really deep into, well, actually, you know, if you’re, I mean, can I give you a great example? All right, so we had, I’ve just recently done a course overseas and,

Andy & Chris (07:28.774)
Yeah, please do, yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (07:40.315)
and it’s a long, long way. And I don’t want to probably tell the country or the, because it will point the person out. But we had a dentist on the course very recently, this was in March, and I was overseas. And so it doesn’t matter wherever it is. And this dentist openly admitted that he’s discounting virtually every time he quotes a fee. And in there, in the country that he operates, it’s all private.

So that’s a lot of discounting. And now when we put the sums up on the board, it was, I can’t remember, it was something like $150 ,000 a year. That was a big, big chunk of fees he was discounting. Now this particular dentist works six days a week. Now he was trying to convince me he loves it and that’s why he does it six days a week, okay? Not sure about that one.

Andy & Chris (08:24.294)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (08:39.59)
I’m likely trying to convince me. Maybe if you put the 150 on the bottom line, you might not have to love it for six days a week.

Ashley Simon Latter (08:39.675)
I love it.

Ashley Simon Latter (08:44.763)
Well, there you go, you see, there is a link. You see, I love doing this, but I don’t want to do it six days a week. But there is a link, you see. And, you know, how many weeks do you have off a year? I think it was like three, possibly four at the most. And here’s the challenge, he had a horrendous cough whilst he was on the course. You know, horrendous.

And he’s been in bed for a couple of weeks. He’s just recovering. I thought he had COVID and he didn’t. But you see, the guy’s, and he’s also keeps fit. He’s a big guy. Now there’s a link here. Because he’s discounting his fees, he has to work longer hours. He’s constantly running late with each appointment on his appointments, which puts more stress on him, which…

which over a period of time, and then he’s coming home trying to keep fit and juggle wife and everything else. Well, eventually he just catches up on you. And that’s why he was really, really poorly. And this guy has been a dentist for, I don’t know, 10 years or so. So that’s about $1 .5 million worth of discount is given. And the patient doesn’t even know a discount’s been given because it all took place in the head. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (09:44.614)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (09:57.706)
I said that’s the thing you don’t even know do they?

But how fascinating from what you say that actually if you get more comfortable with discussing fees and sticking to the price you’ve agreed, it impacts on the time of your family, your health, how you feel within yourself or your wellbeing, how you communicate with your team. So it’s intriguing that actually being comfortable with the money conversation permeates through so many aspects of your life that aren’t obvious. And interesting.

Ashley Simon Latter (10:13.691)
Everything.

Ashley Simon Latter (10:25.723)
But and here’s another thing as well. Here’s another thing. This is a common… This is common. So what they do is the people that discount the most will then spend… Let me just see how I phrase this. But they will spend hours trying to find the cheapest hotel to the venue.

Andy & Chris (10:56.006)
Ha ha ha.

Ashley Simon Latter (10:56.955)
to save money. So it just goes on and on and on. Because then you’re spending hours researching to try and save money all the time on different things. And what I say to dentists is, look, you’ve got to develop your technical skills all the time, but you’ve got to keep developing those.

Andy & Chris (10:59.238)
Yeah, and they’re giving it away.

Ashley Simon Latter (11:22.967)
communication and the fees discussion. It’s going to be ongoing all the time because if you do this you will get a greater return back investment on your time but it also impacts every other part of your life as well because you’re not spending hours to try and save a few pounds on a crappy hotel room near a venue.

Andy & Chris (11:25.51)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (11:37.158)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (11:42.982)
Yeah, but on that point actually, I think where you value others.

I think that generally makes it easier for you to value your own proposition. And particularly within dentistry, I think there is a kind of a cohort of dentists who like looking for free things or low value things because that’s just within any market you’re going to have those people. But I think that can, at a subliminal level, undermine your own proposition. Because if you’re constantly hunting around for discounts and doing things cheaply, surely that has to impact on how you feel about your service and how you price your service.

Ashley Simon Latter (12:16.763)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (12:19.144)
Mm -hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (12:19.323)
Well, you start cutting corners, possibly, or use, I don’t know, I can’t, I’ve got examples of this, but maybe you use materials that, or, I don’t know, but yeah, but 100%, and I say to dentists, I say, look, you know what, deliver some treatment, you know, whatever it is, if it’s a cosmetic case or an implant case, and just bring the patient back three months after.

Andy & Chris (12:34.086)
Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (12:48.763)
and sit with them, check to see how your work’s getting on, check to see everything’s okay, and spend 15 minutes chatting to your patient, get them a coffee, and have a chat with them and ask them, how have things been since you’ve had this treatment? What difference has it made to your lives? What impact has it had? Give me examples. And you sit there with them and they’ll tell you the…

Andy & Chris (13:00.134)
Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (13:13.051)
major benefits they’ve gained and it completely outweighs what they invested in your treatment. And that gives you the confidence then to say, actually, you know what, I’m worth this. I’m worth this.

Andy & Chris (13:18.662)
Hmm, yeah, true.

Andy & Chris (13:24.014)
Yeah. Around discussing fees, the money conversation, is there a standard process to follow that makes that money conversation easier for people as a guide?

Ashley Simon Latter (13:36.591)
What, when you’re actually quoting it or discussing it?

Andy & Chris (13:41.222)
Yeah, when you’re discussing it, for people that might be listening to this and they constantly feel uneasy or they don’t have a formula that they follow, is there a golden rule that people should always follow when they get to that point when they’re going to discuss fees?

Ashley Simon Latter (13:55.163)
Well, I’ll give you, you know, you’ve asked some great questions here, but I’ll give you an example of this. Okay, so there will be a lot of dentists, I’ll give you an example. So there’s a lot of dentists that come on my courses who have done short term orthodontic courses or Invisalign, and they want to do more of this type of dentistry. You know, we have a lot of them and we help them in a big way. So…

Andy & Chris (14:15.718)
Mm -hmm.

Yep.

Ashley Simon Latter (14:24.347)
We always say, or I always suggest, rather than saying the word cost, take the word cost away and just say that your investment, Mrs. Jones, in this treatment is. Or your fee. But the word investment is like you’re getting a big return, you’re getting a return back rather than it’s where cost can sound quite negative. And then tell the patient what’s included in the fee, what they actually…

Andy & Chris (14:41.702)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (14:47.366)
Mm -hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (14:53.915)
what they’re going to be going through, but what’s included. And use words like bespoke, design, skilled technician, manufacture, all these words. But tell the story. So for example, don’t just say you’re going to get a set of retainers at the end. Most patients probably don’t know what retainers are. So if you just explain to them, you know,

Andy & Chris (15:17.03)
You

Andy & Chris (15:20.486)
Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (15:22.971)
At the end of treatment, teeth will often move if not monitored and we take that part seriously. So we’re going to give you some retainers to retain your smile and we’re going to monitor you thereafter to make sure that your teeth stay straight. And just saying this simple language makes a big difference. And when they write it down, rehearse it, and then you realize actually the patient gets a lot for what they pay.

Andy & Chris (15:46.022)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (15:51.174)
I think simplicity of language is key, it’s easy. We all become a bit jargonistic very quickly, don’t we? Because we assume… Too clinical, too technical. Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (15:53.499)
It is.

Ashley Simon Latter (16:00.827)
correct. So you’ve got to stop using the jargon and because the other thing as well is when you confuse patients they tend not to do anything because they’re confused so use simple language and it really does will make a big difference.

Andy & Chris (16:18.438)
Mm. Mm.

Yeah. If you could wave a magic wand, who would you have in the practice to have the money conversation? Who would you have discussing fees in a practice? Who’s the best person?

Ashley Simon Latter (16:34.939)
Why?

Well, I think everybody in the practice needs to be good at discussing fees. I think your reception team, because they will take inquiries at the desk and they need to be comfortable and discussing the fees with the patients. They must answer the phone with no prejudices and they answer phones with prejudices. They think their treatment, again, it’s a big generalisation, but they think that their treatment is expensive.

Andy & Chris (16:43.974)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (16:59.27)
Mm -hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (17:08.443)
But if they haven’t got the problem, their treatment will always be expensive. So you’ve got to have receptionists that have got to be comfortable discussing fees. In fact, to be honest with you, they’re probably the most important people. Because sometimes the patient will see the dentist and they won’t give the dentist an objection because they don’t want to, it’s uncomfortable for them. But they’ll give the objection to the receptionist. So the receptionist needs to be comfortable and be able to back up.

Andy & Chris (17:08.878)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (17:27.11)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (17:30.662)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (17:37.019)
and of course ask for the money, you know. So, receptionists need to be trained. I think dentists need to be able to discuss fees. And I think if, and ideally as well, if you’ve got, if some practices have treatment coordinators, then they could be the best people to discuss the fees with the patient in a treatment consultation. So, I think everybody needs to be,

Andy & Chris (17:38.982)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (17:48.486)
and today you’ll come on your course. Do you get this?

Andy & Chris (17:54.822)
Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (18:06.587)
skilled at it and confident. Yeah, yeah, we have all teams, yeah. So a lot of the times… Correct. And I think the most important, I mean, I’ve just come back from a practice in the Lake District where we worked with the whole team. It was a long day yesterday, which I think why my voice has gone a little bit, but yeah, we trained the whole team yesterday. There were 22 delegates, but everybody needs to…

Andy & Chris (18:08.198)
Does the support team come on your courses, Ashley? Yeah, so that’s the way that you can make sure there’s a commonality of message.

Ashley Simon Latter (18:35.931)
be confident, the nurses as well, because they need to kick the dentist and say, you know, Charles, you’re worth it. You know, so I think everybody needs to be careful.

Andy & Chris (18:41.734)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (18:45.766)
It’s interesting. I always remember we did something years ago. I remember sitting when we used to do consultancy, we stopped it and I remember sitting talking to this dentist and he was like, yeah, great. I’ve done a really well. And then I sat in the reception and basically that you can get the patient came out and said, that was expensive. And the reception is, yeah, it is, isn’t it? And it was like, well, there we go. You just wasted, you know, that treatment time and planning. And it must be, it must be quite hard and imagined.

Ashley Simon Latter (19:07.291)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (19:15.654)
when you get all the team together, because I presume not only have you probably got to change some attitudes, but you’ve also got to change some attitudes with people who are with their bosses. And that must be quite a challenge sometimes to get them all singing on the same hymn sheet, I’d imagine.

Ashley Simon Latter (19:36.731)
Absolutely. And I was with a practice manager a few weeks ago on a course and she openly admitted on the program that, you know, she had this issue and then she realized when she pays the bills how much the costs are. And, you know, she went back to the boss and said, look, we need to put our fees up, you know, and yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (19:53.702)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (19:58.278)
Ha ha ha.

Ashley, do you think there’s a disconnect between the public’s perception of the cost of dentistry and the reality in the, and whether partly this sits linked to the NHS of some sort or other. So a dental practice is constantly kind of fighting against the perception of what it costs and they feel they have to justify their fees.

Ashley Simon Latter (20:25.819)
Well, I mean, again, I could spend an hour on this question, but I think it all depends on the practice and also the type of patient that you’ve got. So let me give you an example. So if you are a mixed practice or an NHS practice and you want to do more private, well, if you’re charging…

I can’t remember what the NHS price is now for a crown. Well, let’s say it’s £310, I think it is in England or something like that. I think it might have gone up recently. And you want to present a private crown and your private crown is say £550 or £600. Then I always say to dentists, not everyone is going to buy the private crown because…

A lot of your patients, if you’re an NHS practice, basically your patient base is anyone that’s got a pulse, anyone that breathes. You’re going to take all types of patients. Now, some of those patients, you could make the fee 320 pounds, 10 pounds more expensive than an NHS crown, and they still wouldn’t buy it. They still go for the cheapest option because they don’t really care about what the…

Andy & Chris (21:27.75)
Ha ha ha.

Andy & Chris (21:41.734)
Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (21:45.787)
major benefits of having a private crown if it’s more aesthetically pleasing. So I always say it all depends on the type of practice you are and also the type of patient that you’ve got coming into your practice. If you are fully private practice, I go to a fully private one, I pay a monthly fee, then I expect the fees to be higher than if I was walking into a National Health Service practice. I expect them to be…

Andy & Chris (21:48.454)
Mm. Mm.

Andy & Chris (22:10.246)
Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (22:14.811)
So I think there’s a lot of considerations how the practice looks, the decor, the uniforms, all these things all count, I think. I think I hope I’ve answered your question there.

Andy & Chris (22:20.998)
Hmm.

And it’s interesting.

Yeah, no, you have and I think a lot of it is that that market pre -positioning isn’t there, you know, we all know if we walk down a high street and you see two or three different restaurants, the look and feed of those restaurants will probably give an indication as to what the price point is. I think the same thing applies in the look of a practice makes a difference, doesn’t it? You know, if you’ve got one, it’s tatty and bits and doesn’t look very cared for. And then you’ve got one that super sparkly. People don’t know the quality of the dentistry. No, they just see that and go, I’ll have a look at that.

Ashley Simon Latter (22:30.587)
you’re right.

Ashley Simon Latter (22:38.427)
Thank you, man.

Andy & Chris (22:56.616)
Another point actually, what was tenacity?

Ashley Simon Latter (22:57.755)
Well, what they can judge, what they can judge is the surroundings. You know, there’s about 30 things they can judge. You know, the toilets, the weeds in the garden, the litter outside. You know, my bugbear is pictures up on the wall with Plutac. You know, you’ve got to get, you know.

Andy & Chris (23:02.854)
Yes, right. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (23:07.142)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (23:13.478)
Yeah, yeah.

or light bulbs that aren’t working. We did we did a practice valuation years ago for this super swanky implant. I mean, really lovely. And then they asked us to do a sort of like a viewing thing that we don’t do anymore. But we said to them, you know, you need to change these light bulbs. And they didn’t.

And basically everybody focused on the fact that all the down lighters weren’t working. It was like mad, you know, there’s 14 down lighters. And it was like, you’re looking at these things, but those are the things we see as consumers. yeah, yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (23:48.699)
Correct. I mean, I’ll give you, and I would say to dentists, I says walk into your building on a Sunday and walk in as a patient and look round from the car park onwards and, you know, go in and judge. And then, because the problem is that they walk past the stains on the wall every day. They walk past the, they get used to it. And I’m the same, I’ve got a training center here and…

Andy & Chris (23:56.55)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (24:10.246)
Yeah, used to it, yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (24:18.875)
One of the slates in the corner there, it’s rained a lot recently, so there’s a little damp patch there, but you know, Bill Schaefer, who’s a very well -known dentist, he comes and helps me teach the courses and he comes up and says, you still not changed that slate in the corner there? And I walk past him, I know, I know, I know. I said, well, I did change it, it’s just the new rain has come through. But…

Andy & Chris (24:29.126)
huh. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (24:36.966)
Yeah look I’ve been traveling for two weeks what do you expect me to do?

Andy & Chris (24:46.726)
Hahaha!

Ashley Simon Latter (24:47.867)
But you see, I walk past it. And that’s what we do, don’t we? We don’t notice. We’re so focused on the dentistry, and I’m so focused on my slides and making sure the course is great. But actually, your delegates sit here and they say, your slate in the corner’s a bit damp.

Andy & Chris (24:49.862)
yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (24:59.974)
Yeah.

Yeah. Have you got like one of your best stories of people that you’ve turned around? You know, someone where they’ve come on your course and they’ve been discounting, you know, your $1 .5 million or whatever it might be. And then you’ve then done a follow -up or something with them 12 months later and you found out they’ve been transformed as a practice financially. What’s your sort of, you know, one of your go -tos? There must be a go -to story that you have.

Ashley Simon Latter (25:30.363)
There is, and I can’t quote a name, but there was one particular, and I’m trying to think, someone in the UK, but there was one particular lady, and I remember vividly, and we spoke about six months after, and she actually brought me a nice bottle of wine and says, thank you, but she was discounting, I think it was virtually every time.

Andy & Chris (25:33.542)
No, no, no.

Ashley Simon Latter (25:59.195)
And the thing was, it was only like 30 to 40 pound, you know, but because she was discounting five or six times a day, she, yeah, times by five. And it was something like, you know, 35, 40 ,000 pound. And I, and I, we, and she was very kind on the course that she volunteered this information and we got the figures up on the flip chart here. And I think she was just,

Andy & Chris (26:08.966)
I say yeah, ten times, whatever.

Ashley Simon Latter (26:28.603)
I think she was just absolutely amazed at how much, and she’d been a dentist for about 15 years as well. So she’d given something like a quarter of a million pound at the top of my head. I mean, I’ve got hundreds of these stories, but this one, because I vividly said, I’m going to put your name, I’m going to give you a call in six months. And we always have a follow -up Zoom call anyway with the whole course. And she told then she made progress, but I put it in my diary and I took a real shine to this lady. And I think as well, she traveled a long way to do the course with me. So.

Andy & Chris (26:50.758)
Mm -hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (26:58.459)
It’s one of those I’m dying to find out. We spoke for about half an hour on the phone. I was walking around the park and she said, you know something, what was strange is I’d never have not had one patient bat an eyelid. And that’s what always happens is that we don’t have anybody, nobody said anything. Yeah, nothing. And you know, it made a big difference because I actually said to her, I said, I want you to do two things for me. When you’ve…

Andy & Chris (27:13.126)
It was all about her, nothing to do with their patients, it was all about her.

Ashley Simon Latter (27:26.139)
in a few months. She said, what are those? She says, well, the first one is book a holiday. Take your family on a nice holiday. And that way you know you’ve got, you can see something you got for your money. But the second thing is book on a course that you’ve always wanted to do. And when you go there, stay in a bloody nice hotel as well. And she did both of those things. And she did both of those things. And you know, so, yeah.

Andy & Chris (27:45.766)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Ashley Simon Latter (27:53.179)
But that was one single case. There was a lady who was based in London, she came up to Manchester to take my calls because I think she missed the London date and she didn’t want to wait any, didn’t want to delay taking the calls. So I did take a shine to her and yeah, that was probably one of my favourite stories.

Andy & Chris (28:06.726)
It’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Because when you talk about it, because dentists in general don’t really understand how they make money as in profitability, they miss that connection by, you know, you’re giving away £30 or whatever it is, you’ve given away £35 ,000, that’s actually on your bottom line. Because you’re still paying all the costs for it. The only thing that you’ve done is cut your income line. It’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (28:28.539)
Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (28:35.963)
Well, I’m no accountant, but we do this on the course. But if you discount by just 10%, so if you’re selling a 600 pound crown and you’re not 10 % off, which is 60 pounds since you didn’t find 40, you can actually lose about 25 % of your net profit by doing that.

Andy & Chris (29:02.31)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause all your costs are the same. Nothing’s, nothing’s changed. It’s all you’ve changed is your income line. And I think people don’t, it’s fascinating, isn’t it? That you have to give them the correlation between that. That says you realise what you’re doing because then you can stay in a nice hotel. Then you can buy your Ferrari. Then you can do this. And all you’ve got to do is stop giving a discount. It’s mad. But then it’s that’s, that’s kind of.

Ashley Simon Latter (29:03.883)
and nothing changes. Yeah.

Correct.

Andy & Chris (29:29.99)
Yeah, it’s amazing. We’ve been talking about discussing fees actually but how important is listening as well? Because I guess you need to make sure that you’re able to couch that conversation in the right way and then get the feedback so you can overcome any potential objections. Does listening feature quite heavily in discussing fees?

Ashley Simon Latter (29:51.067)
You know, selling is not telling, it’s asking. It’s asking questions. And the more questions you ask, the more you’ll learn about your patient. And to do that, you’ve got to be an incredible, brilliant listener. So we, you know, but a lot of dentists listen to respond. So as they’re listening to the patient, they’re thinking what they’re going to say back. And they stop listening. So listening to your patient’s problems and understanding them and really…

Andy & Chris (30:00.198)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (30:08.326)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (30:14.534)
Hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (30:20.155)
Showing empathy is absolutely crucial. And dentists, you know, we teach dentists how to sell without selling. And it’s all based on the questions that you ask, how you build rapport, how you listen attentively to the answers. And it changes dentists because they go back and say, it was incredible. I was listening more. I built better rapport in my patients. I understood, I created more opportunities.

Andy & Chris (30:23.206)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (30:31.014)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (30:40.838)
Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (30:44.987)
Mrs. Williams, a patient of mine for 20 years, told me some things she wanted to have done and when I asked her how come you never told me this in the past, she said, well you never asked or I didn’t know it could be done. So it happens all the time. Listening is the most important skill. We have to listen attentively.

Andy & Chris (30:54.246)
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:00.39)
Do you know you said something there that I think it’s a great phrase selling is not telling mmm, I Think that’s that’s I’ve never heard that before I think that’s a lovely phrase selling is not telling you know is asking And is there within dentistry?

Ashley Simon Latter (31:05.051)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:16.71)
Yeah, selling, I’m sure when you started back in the day, talking about sales in dentistry was quite edgy. And I think we have moved away from the hard sales tactics of, you know, cars and double glazing into a way more ethical approach, which the medical field needs. Is that something that you’ve seen a shift in the profession, that people are now way more comfortable having sales type conversations than they were back when you started?

Ashley Simon Latter (31:46.683)
I think…

Ashley Simon Latter (31:54.011)
I think the answer to the question is yes. But what I do is, and if I’m speaking at a conference, I’ll always ask how many people here believe they’re in sales, and only a quarter of the hands will go up. And then I’ve got to talk to them about, well, don’t you sell ideas every day? Don’t you own health or treatment plans? Don’t you want to, you know, if your patient comes in with a problem, you want to try and talk to them about…

Andy & Chris (32:21.478)
Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (32:22.779)
having this treatment, it’s something they’re going to definitely need and it’s going to benefit them. So I say, don’t you think you’re selling ideas every single day? And they eventually they get it. But what I tend to do is give examples of how it’s not selling and to teach them how to ask questions and how to listen. And once they get that, then they can really then understand, actually we are doing this every day. That’s…

communication is, you know, a massive part of their success. They can be great dentists, they can be technically brilliant at what they do, but if they can’t convince the patient of the benefits of the treatment or what differences are going to make to them, then they’ll never deliver the dentistry they’ve always wanted to do. So to answer your question, yes, yeah, yeah. You have to talk to them about what actually ethicals…

Andy & Chris (33:00.39)
Mm. Mm.

Andy & Chris (33:10.566)
Go into research. Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (33:19.163)
what it actually is and what the concept behind it is. And once they get that, then they understand.

Andy & Chris (33:20.134)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (33:25.958)
Do you find actually that some people are just unteachable?

Ashley Simon Latter (33:30.939)
100 %? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (33:34.15)
They’re just closed doors, not really interested, can’t change, don’t want to change.

Ashley Simon Latter (33:36.795)
Yeah, yeah. Well, luckily I don’t tend to meet many of those people. Because if they’re on my course, they want to be there. So if I’m delivering a course here in my training center in Manchester and I’ve got 25 delegates, the chances are everybody wants to be in the room. So if we’ve got a treatment coordinator, chances are she’s working for a very forward thinking client of mine.

Andy & Chris (33:48.198)
Mmm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (33:55.302)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (34:04.23)
Hmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (34:05.147)
and she wants to be here. So we tend not to bump into too many of those people. But yeah, I will. And here’s the thing.

Andy & Chris (34:15.078)
I know you do some work for corporates and stuff like that who I don’t know whether they are asked to come or whether they’re invited to come and therefore they might come in a bit of a closed mindset.

Ashley Simon Latter (34:19.355)
Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (34:24.763)
Well, yeah. Well, I might deliver a half day or an hour lecture and some of them come along and we have a chat with them after. And yeah, some of them are just not bothered. They want to just carry on as they’re doing what they’re doing at the moment. They’ve got no will to change. But normally people that come and see me or hear me speak have got…

part of an interest, I’ve got some interest in developing themselves. So if they do come to a free lecture or free something, then they’ve got some interest there in making a difference. But yeah, I often, I mean, I’m, and here’s the thing, the people that often need me the most don’t actually end up taking my calls. You know, and it’s so true.

Andy & Chris (35:14.982)
isn’t that so true? They’re almost they’re almost pre -qualified by virtue of being in the room. They know they want to get better. They’re interested in this as a topic and they’re probably already the top quarter. They’re top quarter in terms of performance because and they’re just trying to get better. It’s everybody else that could really benefit from it.

Ashley Simon Latter (35:29.787)
Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (35:36.571)
And you know, I’m just reflecting on this podcast, what great information we’ve given today. But they tend to blame circumstances and not themselves. So this area, my area is different. My patients cannot afford private or they’ll blame head office, they’ll blame the materials that they use, they’ll blame the time of the year.

Andy & Chris (36:00.07)
Mmm.

Ashley Simon Latter (36:06.203)
Brexit government. He gets all, she gets all the best patients next door. I get all the rubbish. You mean the list goes on and on and on.

Andy & Chris (36:07.194)
Whatever.

Andy & Chris (36:15.654)
I think Carol Dweck’s book, Mindset, covers that out quite nicely, doesn’t it, between Fixed Mindset and Growth Mindset.

Ashley Simon Latter (36:20.379)
It does and we focus a lot on mindset on the course because it does make a big difference. Mindset’s really important.

Andy & Chris (36:24.858)
Hmm. Definitely. Yeah. Kind of linked to that. You love nature. I see online you’re out, you know, fell walking, cycling, enjoying the outdoors. Ashley Bear’s letter. Can you draw a line between your business success and keeping yourself mentally fit? Is there a direct conduit between those two things?

Ashley Simon Latter (36:50.459)
Absolutely, 100%, you know. I try and exercise every day, you know, and do something because… And often, it sounds silly, but if I go on a three or four hour bike ride, if I’m on my own, often I come back with my best ideas. So, yeah, absolutely. I do two things every day. And I may have a day off on a Sunday where I might read the newspaper, but…

Andy & Chris (37:07.206)
Yeah.

Ashley Simon Latter (37:19.803)
I read a positive book, I listen to something when I’m walking the dog, so I’m getting some ideas and I exercise every day. So, absolutely. And I sleep better because of it. So I try and go to bed at night when I’m absolutely, not only exhausted mentally, but tired physically as well. And then it impacts my sleep. If I don’t sleep well, I don’t function. I’m really rubbish if I don’t sleep well. And I do travel a lot, you know, I’m in the car a lot and…

Andy & Chris (37:32.55)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (37:38.598)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (37:44.998)
Mm.

Ashley Simon Latter (37:48.379)
I’m travelling, so all this does take a toll. So yeah, absolutely could, you know, mentally and physically I’m doing something every day, 100%.

Andy & Chris (38:00.422)
Actually, it’s been a joy. Yeah, thank you You you you’re gonna you’re gonna get the treasured the treasured medal of not needing to answer our two questions at the end of this He won an only yeah, you’re the only person who’s ever come on the podcast who doesn’t need to answer Because you answered them before people can listen back to those answers on your previous episode It’s been a joy speaking with you actually. Thank you for your time I think the insights that you give people and I think there’s going to be so many little Micro adjustments that people can listen to and just kind of change be open to change. Yeah

Ashley Simon Latter (38:09.659)
Alright.

Ashley Simon Latter (38:22.075)
No, you’re welcome.

Andy & Chris (38:30.328)
I think that’s the thing, be open to change and come along and have a freebie and listen to how you might be able to change them and their financial position. And not necessarily just their finances, but their stress. It’s hard enough, isn’t it, being a dentist and running a business? Anything you can do to make it easier. Thank you. Wonderful. Thank you very much indeed, Ashley. Look after yourself. Cheers, Ashley. Cheers. Dada.

Ashley Simon Latter (38:48.123)
Thank you. It’s been great. Thanks a lot.