Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Christian Henrici
Episode release date – Monday 13 November 2023
Andy & Chris:
We’re back. We are for another podcast. We are, we are. And it’s gonna be a different one, this one, different viewpoint. It is, it is, and I think quite often. From a different country. It’s all about perspectives, isn’t it? It is, it is. So today we are, we’re very fortunate. We’re joined by Christian Henrique, and Christian is the founder of OptiHealth Consultancy in Germany, which is the largest dental consultancy in Germany. Impressive. Very impressive. Hello, Christian, how are you doing?
Christian:
Hey guys, how are you?
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Christian:
Thanks for having me.
Andy & Chris:
very good. No, thanks for joining us. I’m really excited to have the conversation today because obviously we’re uk-based Um, most of our listeners are uk-based and I think sometimes because we’re an island and we have water that goes around us It’s easy to spend time just looking at your space and where you are And I think that to get the experience of what you do in germany and kind of compare and contrast how our different Um worlds operate will be a fascinating conversation. But before we get to that, we need to find out a bit about you and your background. So can we get a bit of background on you, your childhood? It just gives us some context for what’s gonna be a great conversation.
Christian:
So first about me and then about the Brexit or…
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah, break. So we know that’s fine. We can edit that big count. That’s fine. That’s fine However, I did see today Did you see the thing today of how much money that there’s a big levy just I didn’t know if you dread about it But there’s a big levy gonna be on the European Union It’s like billions and billions of dollars because they need to fund something Oh, so there was this big thing of finally bricks at UK. You don’t have to pay this bill
Christian:
Hahaha
Andy & Chris:
That’s one of the things it’s 57 billion. I think it was the bill that’s gonna be passed down So there you go. Look at that. Don’t you love it?
Christian:
The numbers I see is that it’s 100 billion missing in the growth of the UK economy every year due to your lost approach to the European market. So it’s
Andy & Chris:
Yeah
Christian:
pretty expensive, I guess.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, I think it is. I don’t think anyone I mean, I know we’re getting a bit political I don’t think really anybody I don’t think anyone in the uk actually ever believed it was going to happen and I don’t know if you know this But one of the most searched terms after the vote was what is the EU? And it’s like, that’s a little bit late, boys.
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
You should have probably
Christian:
it
Andy & Chris:
thought
Christian:
is.
Andy & Chris:
about that before you voted. So I think it took it one by one. I think you’re right. I think a lot of people, it was a misunderstood protest vote and they didn’t quite. As you say, I don’t think they quite thought that it was going to happen. Um, and it was an incredibly close vote as well.
Christian:
Hmm.
Andy & Chris:
Um, and I find it quite remarkable that when you’re measuring something at less than one percentage point, you have such a profound impact for generations to come, there wasn’t a recount or there wasn’t a buffer
Christian:
Hmm.
Andy & Chris:
that said there has to be a vote, it has to be by at least 3%, 5%, whatever it might’ve been.
Christian:
Mm.
Andy & Chris:
I find it quite remarkable, but we are where we are. I say we
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
are. I don’t have
Christian:
I
Andy & Chris:
a…
Christian:
think it’s very easy to upset the people with very easy terms. It’s it’s always the same playbook. We we know the playbook in Germany as well. And as you know, I think there is that you will find very few people who does more harm to the UK than Nigel Farage.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
So it’s after all I miss the United the United Kingdom. I adore the United Kingdom. I was a very early fan of the United Kingdom because I think your role in the European Union was always very, very clever. And in the history of Europe, French and Germany and the Netherlands, they all 300, 400 years they fight each other
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
through the landscape and the Brits, they conquer the ocean, they conquered the world, they were everywhere, but they say, okay, you guys, you guys in the bin in Europe, do whatever you want, it’s not our war, and you were very, very clever. And I think you did a very good job, 400 or 500 years, and you reached out to every… regions in the world and you was Adam Smith you started the Industrial Revolution
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
you bring wealth to the world so I think there’s a lot of plus points until the Brexit you
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
get your credits for in the world.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah. And ultimately we are all joined up, you know, whether, whether it’s for a European union or not, we do live together. Everything’s interlinked.
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, everything’s interlinked. So whilst that kind of, there’s the end of that union. Um, it’s nice that people can continue to have relationships and trade. Um, without, without that. Um, but yeah, it was an interesting time in the UK for sure.
Christian:
Yeah, absolutely.
Andy & Chris:
Anyway, back to you. Yes, let’s take it
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
back to your childhood.
Christian:
I hope…
Andy & Chris:
How did you get brought up, Christian?
Christian:
I hope I could go through that
Andy & Chris:
I said,
Christian:
very
Andy & Chris:
are you trying
Christian:
elegantly.
Andy & Chris:
to avoid that one? Yeah.
Christian:
No, I was now grown up in Germany and I went to the United States to Atlanta. I worked for the German American Chamber of Commerce and we helped a small and mid-sized German companies to enter the market in the Southern United States. And back then I I met some big dental companies like Patterson, Henry Schein, and I met some dentists. And I was in a treatment at a dentist and I was wondering, this guy is wearing a suit. I knew the dentists in Germany, they were all white and there was no picture on the wall. It was just very clean. And in the United States, it was like a little bit more entertaining.
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Christian:
much more expensive and
Andy & Chris:
Ha ha.
Christian:
everything was great, everything was great and I say, okay, there’s so many difference. It’s, they asked me if I want to brighten up my teeth. They asked me if I want to do this and that and so on and so on and so on and back at home. I knew my dentist as okay, I have an injury or I have a fell feel some pain in my tooth and I go to the dentist. So I said, okay, I could maybe do an arbitrage on that knowledge. So I try to gain some knowledge in the United States, went back to Germany, hired with a German software company for dentists. and developed a dental practice management program. The program became the market leader in Germany with more than 13,000 units installed. We have 45,000 dentists in Germany, as 45,000 dentists who are self-employed in the practice. And at all, there are 70,000 dentists in Germany. So that was back 2004, 2005, and 2006. I founded my consultant company and yeah we developed the consultants company through from quality management, process management, hygiene management, praxis founding, praxis selling, and so on. So we try to cover the whole process of a praxis.
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Christian:
And yeah, we always try to find some new things, try to develop some new software to help the dentist to be more efficient. So my goal is overall to make the dentist more productive. more efficient and we have a big problem to find new employees. We have labor shortage in Germany as well. It’s a horror in the dental practice right now and what we always try to do is to fasten up the processes to
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
make with less cost to
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
let’s easy say was less staff involved to help the staff to be more be more efficient to know more tools to try to use to more new tools and give them more education in Germany from 230,000 dental employees just 10% further education. So it’s a big gap, it’s a big lack of information and education.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
And this is the reason why overall the dental market hasn’t grown their productivity in 20 to 30 years. And this is the market where we work in and try
Andy & Chris:
Did
Christian:
to fix it.
Andy & Chris:
Germany suffer like the UK has in the post-COVID? I think we lost what they reckon are one and a half million people. Just stopped working. You know, and it wasn’t to do with immigration and people returning to Europe. It was just like people. I think they were saying mainly in their fifties just decided they weren’t going to go and work again. Is that the same experience of Germany
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
that you sort of these people have just disappeared from the workforce because they don’t want
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
to work
Christian:
exactly.
Andy & Chris:
anymore?
Christian:
Exactly. Normally we know out of a big crisis that the people used to work longer.
Andy & Chris:
Mmm.
Christian:
So you see a big crisis, you say, oh, the people say normally, okay, I need to save my money. So it’s
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
a good idea to work some more years to
Andy & Chris:
It’s
Christian:
save
Andy & Chris:
almost a bit
Christian:
more
Andy & Chris:
like
Christian:
money.
Andy & Chris:
the depression, wasn’t it? The
Christian:
And…
Andy & Chris:
depression of the 1920s. People worked their way out of the depression.
Christian:
Exactly.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
And we have so many problems in our history, like 1945, the Weimar Republic, 1920, and so
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
on and so on. And in all this crisis, and even in the oil crisis in the 70s, and some other depressions, economic depressions,
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Christian:
the purple, the people used to work longer. And now it’s the first crisis where we see the opposite. We
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
see that the people went out of the at 63 or 62 and say, okay, that’s it for me. I
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
don’t want to work any longer. So we see the same problem. We have a massive exit out of the labor market.
Andy & Chris:
Just going back to your stint in America, was that kind of after your school years and you went to work out there? Or did you
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
just, so you specifically went to gain employment or did you have a job before you went to America?
Christian:
Yeah, in Germany we do some kind of Trainingships so it’s like a three-year traineeship in the Bronx. It’s not a universal studies
Andy & Chris:
Yep.
Christian:
it’s Yeah, it’s a very well known system in Germany so you get trained for two or three years
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
and then you’re Yeah, a trained bank clerk and so on and I was a trained bank clerk and then I went to the United States to improve my very bad English back then, more than 20 years ago.
Andy & Chris:
It’s way
Christian:
So
Andy & Chris:
better than my German.
Christian:
I didn’t
Andy & Chris:
It’s way
Christian:
remember
Andy & Chris:
better than
Christian:
a
Andy & Chris:
my
Christian:
lot
Andy & Chris:
German.
Christian:
from
Andy & Chris:
You’re fine.
Christian:
those days. So and then after that I started my studies parallel to my work at the dental company where we developed the Praxis Management Software System.
Andy & Chris:
Wow. Mm. And it was that first exposure with the practice management software system that was your entree into dentistry. That was your first
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
experience.
Christian:
yeah, my first, my idea to go into this industry was in the United States. I say, I want to work in that industry. And then I said, by me, okay, where can I work? Is it a good idea to learn the industry, to work on the supply side? Is it a good idea to… to study dentistry? Is it a good idea to blah blah? And one of the possibilities was to work in a software company and I said okay software is the future. Software is digitalization. Every process needs to be digitalized and so I said okay I want to choose a progressive way and I choose the software company.
Andy & Chris:
And the software company you work for, was that quite groundbreaking? Was it quite innovative as a company back in the day when you joined them? Were
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
there many companies doing what this company was doing? Because I just look at where you’re at now and you talk about the efficiencies that you bring to Dendropratsis. Were you having to effectively create a new market for those services?
Christian:
Yeah, it was back then we had more than 60 dental software companies in Germany and it was all around to the treatment and the billing and in Germany you have a quite complicated insurance back end you have more than 350 insurances and you have yeah some strict
Andy & Chris:
See you next time.
Christian:
So the first approach was to help the dentist to get a good handling
Andy & Chris:
to make sure he claimed properly.
Christian:
with insurance companies. So you make the treatment. and you get paid for it.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
So this was the first picture, the first aspect of software. Now 20 years later, you need a lot more software. You need the ERP system, so you need all the things where you plan your resources, where you plan your materials, your hygiene, all the processes, all the tasks for all the staff. Then you have the patient. This is a customer relationship management. You have the patient you need to You need to treat the patient you need to get built You need to get paid for the patient and you need to recall the patient So you have these two systems and the big problem in German was that over all these years the come the softer companies and the billing, so just with the CRM side, that they just cashed out and they didn’t do a further development on the software system. So we have on all of the rest, all of the ERP side, there was no, zero development in 20 years. So the
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
the years besides education and
Andy & Chris:
Hmm
Christian:
better handling of the stuff. So just right now in the last like through the COVID years, the company started to develop tools to help them in the ERP backend.
Andy & Chris:
And German dentists, like UK dentists, have started to become a bit more of sales people, whereas they’re now starting to present treatment plans. It’s interesting, it was all privately funded, is that on the insurance policies or was there any government funding in there at all?
Christian:
The market in Germany is 30 billion. You have 50% of it, so 15 billion are government financed and 50 billion are private financed.
Andy & Chris:
Oh, okay.
Christian:
So you have every citizen of Germany, every people that works or lives in Germany don’t necessarily, German citizen is in short. is have the basis insurance. And with the basis insurance, all the TIS treatments are in there. And then you have the possibility to change your insurance system to be private insured. Then you get some money from the state and you pay the rest by your
Andy & Chris:
So you sort
Christian:
own.
Andy & Chris:
of top it up with your own
Christian:
on
Andy & Chris:
bits,
Christian:
top
Andy & Chris:
right?
Christian:
and then you have the chance to get better treatments. This is a very big picture, so it’s
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
way more complicated than I explained to you right now. So, and this private insurance companies, they are, much cheaper when you’re young. So when you’re 20, 25, you pay one third of the general health insurance system from the state. And when you’re later, you pay double or the three
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Christian:
times
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
the public insurance policies.
Andy & Chris:
Wow. And I imagine going back to your point about software. That’s complicated isn’t it? I was just about to say from a practice management point of view, I assume you need to reconcile. who you’re being paid by, what you’re being paid for, making sure you’re actually being paid. So I imagine that’s quite a complicated business management tool. Because compared to the UK, the UK system is relatively straightforward. We have NHS and private. And private comes in a couple of different ways, but typically with private, you either receive a regular monthly diet debit from your patient, or it’s pay as you go. So when they come in, they pay when they receive their dentistry. Or the government backed NHS system is you receive a monthly amount into your bank account and it’s roughly the same amount every single month and that comes in. Those are the only two systems.
Christian:
Mm-hmm.
Andy & Chris:
And if you have an insurance bank scheme, typically that would be, sometimes the practice might get paid but invariably it gets paid to the patient and then the patient pays. So it’s nothing like as complicated as the system that you’ve just described.
Christian:
Mm hmm. Yeah, I see. I got
Andy & Chris:
Especially
Christian:
it.
Andy & Chris:
with volumes, isn’t it? You know, if you think that all those transactions you’re claiming, unless you’ve got something to actually manage it, you’re… Definitely odds of not claiming something you should be claiming for. Yeah, it starts to make sense now How how your group has grown and evolved that you’re looking for? Efficiencies you’re looking to try to free the dentist the clinician up to see patients and you’re looking to try and take care of Those back-end efficiencies through software and you kind of it looks to me like that’s kind of how you grow because I know We spoke before you talked about your inventory your stock management system as well Which again is another great example of how it frees the dentist up to do more dentistry And I think we’re seeing AI and other tech coming into dentistry That is meaning the dentist can spend more time talking to their patient which ultimately is where they’re gonna where they’re gonna make their money
Christian:
Yeah, absolutely. So you need to free them that they are able to work to be more efficient. But what I what I need to say is that the dentists are able to delegate a lot of their treatments to their employees as well. And in the last couple of years, they started to develop practice management system, praxis managers, CEO for praxis. Since 2015, they’re allowed, investors are allowed to get into the market and buy dental practices. So
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Christian:
we have some big DSOs in Germany as well, and they try to make the system more efficient as well. But overall, we have the 30 billion in the market dental treatments year by year and this amount is growing every year about one to two percent so in Germany we have we have a pretty we have pretty good figures on the zero to three year old three year old to the eleven year old and the eleven year old to the grown-ups so the figures how the treatments and So it’s like one to three years, they always count the holes in the teeth, how many
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
teeth have a hole.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
And you have… unbelievable low numbers.
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
But when you look into the numbers, you have 85% of the 0 to 3 they have zero holds and 15% have five holds. So you have you have a growing population who don’t get access to the dentist, who
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
is not a lot of immigrants,
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
a lot of people where the parents don’t care about their kids. And this is the problem we need to handle the next couple of
Andy & Chris:
Hmm
Christian:
years. But the general dental treatment, I must say, I think it’s pretty good
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Christian:
from…
Andy & Chris:
that’s a big amount isn’t it compared to probably with the uk’s. I can’t remember what the uk budget is, but Somehow I think it’s significantly cheaper than 30. I know that’s euros, but yeah that would still what’s that about 25? Billions sterling. Yeah, I don’t Think the market is 25 billion. Yeah, I’ll be stunned if it was yeah christian you were saying about um dso’s You know, so in the dso kind of phrases creeping into sort of english language now We would typically have talked to about as corporates but corporates dsos in terms of German dentistry, in terms of ownership, because I think in the UK, we’re probably around about sort of to 30, 35% of dental
Christian:
Really?
Andy & Chris:
practices are owned, yeah, by either a large DSO, so we have some quite large groups that own, you know, multiple hundreds of practices, and then we have others that are down in the sort of tens. Two or three, yeah. But like I say, the corporate side of dentistry has grown quite a lot in the last, years although it seems to have kind of hit the buffers a bit it’s definitely slowing down and we were talking to one of the other businesses we have is a commercial finance company and they do quite a lot work with pharmacies and the pharmacy market at the moment is unraveling so the corporate owners in pharmacy are disposing of their portfolio because they’ve realized they can’t make it work. And there’s the early signs that on the DSO side in UK dentistry, it’s not quite as active and as bullish in acquiring practices as it was. I was just interested to hear what the experience in Germany is like. Yeah.
Christian:
Oh yeah, that’s very interesting. 30% of the market, these are crazy figures. So when I understand it right, do I understand it right that 30% of the UK practices are owned by a DSO?
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, but they can be very small so it could be like me owning two.
Christian:
Yeah, okay, got it. Okay, got it.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah. So there’s probably, I’m trying to think, probably a thousand practices between maybe three quarters. I’m just thinking Bupa, my dentist, Portman, you probably got a thousand in there and then the rest of them are all pretty smallish ones. It’s an interesting change, as Andy was saying, one of the things that we’ve seen, obviously we’ve valued and sold them, is that the ones, especially in the areas that they can’t get dentists to, you’re back to the recruitment thing, they’re disposing of because basically they can’t run them and make any money out of them.
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
How many
Christian:
okay.
Andy & Chris:
practices in Germany?
Christian:
So we have 45,000 practices. Out of the 45,000, we have 10,000 big practices. So it was more than one dentist. And out of these 10,000 dentists, you have around 800 to 1,000 practices who are in a structure for an investor. And by, it’s maybe like 800 or six to 800 by an investor
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Christian:
and the rest is owned by yeah big dentist
Andy & Chris:
And that 45,000
Christian:
and so on.
Andy & Chris:
practices, that’s actually a dental practice with a dentist in or…
Christian:
Exactly, exactly.
Andy & Chris:
wow! That’s interesting because you were saying that you said, did you say there were 70,000 dentists in Germany, of which 45,000 work in kind of dental practices, so there’s obviously the army and the hospital. So in the UK, we’ve got 42,000 dentists, but that would include hospitals, armed forces, and we only have 11,000 dental practices.
Christian:
Ah, okay,
Andy & Chris:
So,
Christian:
okay.
Andy & Chris:
so there’s 11, it’s actually a very hard number to give an exact figure on for different reasons, just because of the way they’re measured. It’s about 11,000, 12,000. But when you work that back, that works out to be about 1,600 people per dentist in the UK. However, I know that our population’s about 67 million, yours is about 83 million, something
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
like that.
Christian:
86 million
Andy & Chris:
So
Christian:
people. Exactly.
Andy & Chris:
it’s a bit bigger, but you seem to have a lot more dentists and a lot more practices available to your population. I know a lot of the practices, as you were saying, are they sort of like single person? dentists so it’s
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
like you know some bloke in a little town or a town that is just his
Christian:
Exactly.
Andy & Chris:
own practice
Christian:
Yeah, you have them overall. You have them in every little village. You have a dentist and
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
it’s quite convenient even, especially for the… You see, the people are all getting older. So you
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
have in the demography, you have a lot of people who are like 80, 90, who are out of work.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
unable to be, to have a big mobility. So
Andy & Chris:
Right, so
Christian:
they
Andy & Chris:
you need the
Christian:
need
Andy & Chris:
local.
Christian:
to get treated close to the place where they live. And this is a big plus because You have the big problems with the people who are getting very old, that they get like in the hospitals, when the people are getting out of the hospitals, are in their senior homes, so
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
not in their home again, I don’t know how your retirement
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
comes,
Andy & Chris:
Our care
Christian:
I
Andy & Chris:
homes,
Christian:
think.
Andy & Chris:
same sort of thing. We know. Yeah. So our
Christian:
Exactly.
Andy & Chris:
phrase would be domiciliary where people, a dentist would go and visit, visit a patient that wasn’t able to get to the practice.
Christian:
Exactly. And there
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
are some figures actually in Germany, they get brushed their teeth once in a week
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
in this kind of homes. And they didn’t know it until it was researched.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
And this is a problem. The people
Andy & Chris:
Isn’t it remarkable
Christian:
die sooner.
Andy & Chris:
in a very civilized state like Germany, and I’m sure that happens in England as well. Yeah, I’m not just, yeah, I’m sure it happens here, but it’s remarkable in what we consider to be very well-developed countries.
Christian:
Yeah, exactly.
Andy & Chris:
There’s still people who are only brushing their teeth once a week. It’s
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
heartbreaking.
Christian:
exactly. And like, what would you say if they or Chris, when they say, okay, give 50 bucks a month and we and your parents are in some kind of a home and we make sure that we at least brush the
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
tools of your parents once a day. So, and this is a big problem. Nobody knows about it. But as long as the people are not in this kind of treatment centers, seniority, homes.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
It’s very important to them that they have the mobility, the flexibility
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
to have a dentist like two miles around of
Andy & Chris:
Well…
Christian:
their home. And this is a big plus and I hope they will stay in the land side for
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Christian:
very
Andy & Chris:
yeah, yeah.
Christian:
long
Andy & Chris:
You
Christian:
because
Andy & Chris:
want that community,
Christian:
it helps
Andy & Chris:
don’t
Christian:
us.
Andy & Chris:
you?
Christian:
Yeah
Andy & Chris:
Christian
Christian:
it helps
Andy & Chris:
did those
Christian:
us a lot.
Andy & Chris:
do those practices get subsidized in any way? Did they get any government grants or anything like that to serve the local community? Because I imagine from a business point of view if you’re in a small village where you’re looking after an elderly population Financially, it’s probably not that rewarding. So I didn’t know Questions I was going to ask is would there be an average sort of revenue for a practice like that you know, is it or is it that quite hard to come up with a average, you know, is it 150,000 euros or 500,000 euros, because I don’t know the price of treatments.
Christian:
So you have the figure says, overall the average in Germany is on 1,200 patients you have one dentist. In the big cities like Hamburg, Berlin, Munich, Cologne, you have like 400 to 450 patients on one dentist. And on the
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
landscape you have 2,000 patients on one dentist. So the big picture is that you make more money comparison to the cities. So
Andy & Chris:
Wow. Wow, okay. Ha ha.
Christian:
and even in the land there are some landscape in Germany who are beautiful but nobody lives there anymore
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Christian:
then the government writes you a cheque here are 300,000 euros you need to stay there for like 10 years or
Andy & Chris:
Oh wow, so
Christian:
and
Andy & Chris:
there’s
Christian:
you get
Andy & Chris:
your support.
Christian:
every year 30,000 or we buy you the house or you give you the landscape and you can own it but
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
you need to have your there are some programs since a long time, since like 20 years. So
Andy & Chris:
about you.
Christian:
since I’m in the market, I know these programs, but due to the land side that you earn, an average more than in the cities, it makes it for the owners attractive to be on the land side.
Andy & Chris:
No. So taking aside these kind of very landscape, rural-based practices, in the UK the average size practice has two or three surgeries, so two or three rooms with a dental chair, and that practice would typically generate income of about £700,000 roughly, about €850,000, something like that. Is that quite typical? Does that compare reasonably well with the German practice?
Christian:
Yeah, the German prices in average do like 450,000 euros in revenue.
Andy & Chris:
Is that
Christian:
And
Andy & Chris:
per surgery? Or is that the whole practice?
Christian:
No, for the whole praxis for in a year. Are you talking just about the surgery specialized praxis?
Andy & Chris:
Yeah. So, so let me, let me, let me explain. So, um, a surgery, so by our definition of surgery is a room that has a chair where you can treat a patient. And then the dental practice might have two or three surgeries. So there’d be two or three dentists working in general dentistry. General dentistry. And typically we would expect each of those surgeries to produce about 250,000 sterling, about 300,000 euros per, per surgery. So that’s kind of a fairly typical practice. that would be a good performing practice if it was at those numbers. So a two to three surgery practice would be about yes 700,000 sterling about 800,000 euros income something like that.
Christian:
So surgeries are for you a dentist who is who’s doing surgeries, right?
Andy & Chris:
Yes. Yeah.
Christian:
OK, now I got it. Yeah. In Germany, you have. you have a mixed picture. You have specialized surgery practices
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
where other practices send their treatments to these practices to
Andy & Chris:
Right,
Christian:
let
Andy & Chris:
so
Christian:
them do
Andy & Chris:
like
Christian:
the
Andy & Chris:
implantologist
Christian:
surgery and then
Andy & Chris:
or
Christian:
they…
Andy & Chris:
an endodontist or perio,
Christian:
Exactly.
Andy & Chris:
something like
Christian:
And
Andy & Chris:
that.
Christian:
then
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Christian:
they
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
send you the patients back. So as a normal, normal non surgery dentist, you have the chance to after the surgery and the patients is coming back to you with an implant, you the put you put the cons on it, you put on the
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, same
Christian:
head.
Andy & Chris:
as here, isn’t it? There’s practices
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
like that here.
Christian:
And so you have shared revenue in this case. So the guy who put in the implant makes their money. And as a normal practice, you make the money to the figures. As this kind of specialized practices, you earn a lot of more. So but it’s not that you for this kind of practices you make in between 700,001 million euros a year. And normally you have in practice one and a half people in average.
Andy & Chris:
Okay. Typically, and sorry, we’re asking you loads of questions here, but what would an implant typically cost in Germany?
Christian:
implant with a prosthetic as a with a work
Andy & Chris:
Yes,
Christian:
on
Andy & Chris:
yeah,
Christian:
it
Andy & Chris:
yeah.
Christian:
with
Andy & Chris:
So
Christian:
a head
Andy & Chris:
surge
Christian:
on it
Andy & Chris:
surgery to place it and then the restoration on top. Yeah
Christian:
Okay, you pay… in between 2000 and 5000 euro.
Andy & Chris:
So it’s similar because ours is about two to two and a half thousand sterling Yeah,
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
you get some people do the really cheap ones, but everyone’s a little bit dubious sister. Are they ever actually gonna work?
Christian:
So you have some geniuses here who treat like 99% non-Germans and they fly all over from the
Andy & Chris:
Ah,
Christian:
world
Andy & Chris:
yeah,
Christian:
to let
Andy & Chris:
yeah.
Christian:
them treat them. They take like more than 5,000
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
plus.
Andy & Chris:
Welcome to Harley
Christian:
And
Andy & Chris:
Street. Yeah.
Christian:
yeah, so you always have these guys everywhere in the world who treat
Andy & Chris:
Yes.
Christian:
it for
Andy & Chris:
Interestingly
Christian:
very big money.
Andy & Chris:
enough, Christian, do you is there a dude said that Harley Street and Wimpost Street would sort of be the perceived. upper end of dentistry, even though we know there’s good dentistry in other places. Is there a place in Germany that sort of like is the place that you know whether it’s like some strasse in Munich or something in Frankfurt is that like the hotbed of dental activity and class in Germany where people go because people do it in the UK they sort of say yeah my dentist is in Harley Street because really
Christian:
Okay.
Andy & Chris:
they’re just trying to show off you know is it is there somewhere in Germany go well actually my Friedrich Strasser in Munich or something.
Christian:
Yeah. No, you don’t have the streets in Germany, but you have some people where at least as a dentist, you know, oh, you’ve been with Otto in Munich,
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
Otto and Mark in Munich, and then say, okay, this is best of class.
Andy & Chris:
Oh, okay.
Christian:
So
Andy & Chris:
That’s
Christian:
everybody,
Andy & Chris:
interesting, isn’t it?
Christian:
so there’s implant practice in Munich, and they, I think they’re, sometimes when I’ve been there and they don’t let anybody in because two days before they closed the parking spaces because the security of some leader of
Andy & Chris:
Oh,
Christian:
some
Andy & Chris:
ha ha!
Christian:
Eastern Europe country is coming for the treatment. So I saw everything there and so you have always these stars, the same at your place as
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
well.
Andy & Chris:
Oh, I was going to say, I think every country’s got them, haven’t they?
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
They’re
Christian:
exactly,
Andy & Chris:
sort of superstar dentists. I know
Christian:
exactly.
Andy & Chris:
we
Christian:
And
Andy & Chris:
were very fortunate.
Christian:
we have them as well as you guys too.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah, I mean we’ve been very fortunate through the podcast. I talked to lots of dentists that Operate at those levels and they just behave and think differently to many other people We were fortunate. We spent a couple of days with miguel stanley in portugal Early on in the year and we saw his practice and just the level that he kind of operates at and he’s very vocal And he’s very proud because he looks after renaldo is one of his patients and madonna. I noticed You see his instagram post madonna, but you do I like to say in every country like that. One thing that stood out for me as well, just sort of moving away from kind of the comparing thing but more about your services, is you have this summer school that you’ve developed which I find interesting because most of your services are very software led and they’re about efficiencies and technology but over the years, I know when we spoke last time you told me about this kind of Opti summer school where you kind of effectively help you know the next generation of practice owners. How did that come about and what does that which sounds incredibly ambitious.
Christian:
So we have 32 dental schools in Germany, and 31 of them are free, so you don’t have to pay for it. And we have a lot of very well-trained students, and they are, treatment-wise, they are very, very good. It’s a tough, there’s tough studies in Germany, they need to do, not at least to do all the theoretical stuff, but then they have to, many semesters they need to do the work perfectly and they
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
get and they otherwise they get thrown out of the studies and nobody cares about because they don’t pay for the studies the state pays for the studies and in the study plan there is a lack of business economics so they have
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Christian:
no human resource topics no economics and so on and so on and
Andy & Chris:
It’s exactly the same in the UK. Yes, there’s no
Christian:
yeah
Andy & Chris:
difference. In
Christian:
really
Andy & Chris:
the UK, it is all about clinical work, administration, yeah, the paperwork. There’s no time in the curriculum available at all. So yeah. Is the dental degree in Germany the same length as the UK?
Christian:
Pardon me?
Andy & Chris:
Is it the same length as the UK in years? So it’s a five year degree. It’s a five year degree
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
here. It’s
Christian:
yeah,
Andy & Chris:
a five year degree in the UK, it’s
Christian:
it’s
Andy & Chris:
five
Christian:
five.
Andy & Chris:
years. Yeah, yeah,
Christian:
It’s
Andy & Chris:
yeah.
Christian:
five, exactly, yeah. And then they have two more like apprentice years in a praxis they need
Andy & Chris:
Oh, okay.
Christian:
to cover. And after that, so after seven years, they are allowed to establish their own praxis.
Andy & Chris:
Right. So we only have one year. So your, your two year apprenticeship, it’s like a one year foundation year where they get to apply what they’ve learned in dental school. So probably two years is better talking to the dentist, isn’t it? Cause they come out at one year and that guy was saying today that they quite often don’t know. Yeah. Practicals.
Christian:
So and what we saw… over all these years was that they just have no clue what they’re doing in order to the economics. So they got debt from a bank. There’s a bank who specialized on dentists in Germany, very big bank, so they get very easy money. They could buy in operations or they can build up in new operations in dentistry.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm. Ha.
Christian:
And then they started working. they have a margin higher than 32% in average. So they didn’t need to worry about economics. But they worried about economics and
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
they were afraid to to take 500,000 or 1 million euros from the bank and need to take care of the families and need to take care of, let’s say, pay the money back. So we saw this gap and then we said, okay, we need to get the people who want to founder praxis and we need to get the people together. We need to bring them together for like, for one week.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
And we make close shops. And then on the first day we tell them everything about business plans and marketing and how to deal with insurance companies and how to find patients, how to keep patients. and so on and so on and so on. And we started it like 10 years ago and back then we said, okay, we want to make at least one class. One class is normally in Germany 16 persons and it started nobody wants to come. Nobody was waiting for us.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
Nobody was interested in it. So we had like two persons and I backed a lot of students, a lot of. other folks said, okay, please come to our course. You don’t need to pay for it. We cover everything. And the first year we covered everything. We paid them 50 euros that they can drive home or to get a train
Andy & Chris:
Oh wow.
Christian:
home and so on. We even give them money.
Andy & Chris:
So you were paying
Christian:
And
Andy & Chris:
them to come. Ha
Christian:
yeah,
Andy & Chris:
ha ha.
Christian:
exactly, we did, we did. And… The second years was a little better, the third years was just a little better and now Since five years we have 100 seats. This are six classes with 16 people, so 98 people, 100 people, and we put them in six different rooms and make a program with them for one week. And this year we received 600 applications for these 100 seats.
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
Last year it was like 420. was 180,
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
the year before was 140.
Andy & Chris:
And have you kept this free, Christian, for the kind of the students, the people who are just graduating? Is it
Christian:
We
Andy & Chris:
still
Christian:
kept
Andy & Chris:
free
Christian:
it
Andy & Chris:
to…?
Christian:
free until last year, year nine. This year was year 10, and this year they need to pay for it. So it was a long, long up ramp to the business what’s
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
in right now. So now they need to pay for it, but last year they didn’t need to pay. We had 380 applications. This year we had 600 applications,
Andy & Chris:
Hehehe
Christian:
they paid for it. So now, but our… our strategy was we tried to get from every dental school in Germany, we at least a handful of people. So
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
we need, we want to use them as satellites to spread our information. That’s a talk
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, definitely
Christian:
with,
Andy & Chris:
a great idea.
Christian:
with the people who they studied with.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm
Christian:
And we, we picked out of the 600, the people who were ready with the studies,
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
who were almost ready with a two
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
year or they are ready with a two year so that we just
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Christian:
pick them, that we make sure that in the next six to 12 to 18 months, they
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
actually establish,
Andy & Chris:
And
Christian:
or.
Andy & Chris:
also I’d have thought by bringing people in from all the different dental schools, it’s quite, it creates diversity in that if you just meet with people who went to the same dental school, you would have all had a similar experience. Whereas if you’re meeting people from all over Germany, that’s going to be a much more interesting group to mix with. It’s not a dental school, isn’t
Christian:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
it? 32. Yeah, it’s huge amount. Huge
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
amount.
Christian:
absolutely. Right now it’s Austria and Swiss as well. So we cover their dental schools as well. A couple of people came out of the countries.
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
So yeah, it’s a lot of diversity and the people talk, they connect with each other. And for us, the business case is after the event, they talk with other people about the event. They are normally
Andy & Chris:
It’s a good
Christian:
very happy
Andy & Chris:
store of value
Christian:
with the event.
Andy & Chris:
for the future, isn’t it, as well? Because,
Christian:
and
Andy & Chris:
you know, not only are
Christian:
write.
Andy & Chris:
they internal ambassadors for you, but also, hopefully, they will go on and become practice owners, and they go, oh, yeah, I remember those guys helped me out right at the beginning. It’s great, I
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
do. Yeah.
Christian:
and right now for next year and the dental, the OptiSummerschool just finished like three weeks ago, or four weeks ago, I think half of our seats for next year are already
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
full. So we,
Andy & Chris:
What a lovely position to
Christian:
and
Andy & Chris:
be in.
Christian:
we received so many applications right now. It will, I think it will be close to 1000 applications next
Andy & Chris:
And
Christian:
year.
Andy & Chris:
do you keep the same number that you’ve only got the 100 people
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
or
Christian:
always
Andy & Chris:
do you? Wow,
Christian:
100.
Andy & Chris:
that’s brilliant.
Christian:
We could go up, we could go on 200 or 300. Maybe we do this someday, but then we need to change to another location because
Andy & Chris:
Bye.
Christian:
we don’t have enough hotel space there and so on and so
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Christian:
on and so
Andy & Chris:
it’s
Christian:
on.
Andy & Chris:
more complicated.
Christian:
And I try to avoid that as long as I can.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, and do you work with other commercial partners with this? Yeah, I was going to ask is there sponsors to come in and…
Christian:
Yeah, we need to get it. It cost us a couple of hundred thousand euro
Andy & Chris:
Yo.
Christian:
and we cover it with partners. And there we first year we had one, the first two or three years we had one partner who believed in us. And
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
after, so we make a contract I think with three or four years with or five years with them. And they believed very much in it and they got paid it back a couple of hundred times because they all customers. And
Andy & Chris:
That’s brilliant.
Christian:
after that, other companies asked to join and we asked other companies to say, okay, you, you would be a great company to join and so on. And
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
yeah, this is how it works out
Andy & Chris:
And do they
Christian:
over
Andy & Chris:
get
Christian:
the years.
Andy & Chris:
to speak? So do they get to do a slot or something? Or they just sort of there? I was just thinking the bank guys, you know, do the bank guys
Christian:
So,
Andy & Chris:
come and talk about finance or whatever.
Christian:
yeah, so the only thing what we didn’t want it up to now was bank guys and insurance guys. So
Andy & Chris:
Okay, interesting.
Christian:
that was the guys until now who said they will write the biggest check. And they always did. They say, we want to be there. We and they said that they pay double what the other pet. This is true. until now, maybe, maybe someday, but
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
normally, as long as I can avoid it, I try to get the bank and insurance guys out of the business. But it’s maybe a different system in Germany. I need
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
it. In Germany, it’s a very, very big you call it provisions, provision, it’s a system where they get paid, they make an insurance contract and they get a lot of money.
Andy & Chris:
Right,
Christian:
So and
Andy & Chris:
okay. Yeah. So in, in the
Christian:
it’s
Andy & Chris:
UK is commission. You get paid a lot of commission
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
for selling insurance.
Christian:
commission is the
Andy & Chris:
For
Christian:
right
Andy & Chris:
yeah.
Christian:
word. You
Andy & Chris:
For,
Christian:
get
Andy & Chris:
for yeah. For setting, for setting
Christian:
it.
Andy & Chris:
insurance policies, you own a lot of commission. Yeah.
Christian:
And when you, and as an insurance guy in Germany, it it’s easy for you to sell three, four, five insurances
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Christian:
and take advantage of three, four, five commissions
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Christian:
and don’t worry about the rest. And this is a very established system in Germany and as long as the people can handle it in a good way, I think it’s fair and it’s
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Christian:
okay.
Andy & Chris:
yeah, yeah.
Christian:
And they receive, they get,
Andy & Chris:
As long as it’s ethical, you don’t mind.
Christian:
yeah.
Andy & Chris:
It sounds like you also want to protect the young dentists.
Christian:
Absolutely,
Andy & Chris:
You
Christian:
absolutely.
Andy & Chris:
know they’re gonna need insurance at some point, but you don’t want somebody coming in and just selling, selling lots
Christian:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
of things
Christian:
so
Andy & Chris:
to
Christian:
we
Andy & Chris:
young
Christian:
have.
Andy & Chris:
dentists. Don’t make a fast buck.
Christian:
There are some universities already who ask us to come into their third semester, so after one and a half years, and talk about financial education. Like the University of Witten, they asked us to do it. We started this program last year and I did the study. So I’m official in this university. units to explain them, financial
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Christian:
education and so on, and in the first session I asked, so…
Andy & Chris:
Ha ha ha, getting quick. Yeah. You’re already too late. Christians, aside from that, what would you take? What would you take as your key message from being in business, from being a business owner and a founder of the business? If you had to give one bit of advice to anybody else who was looking to get into business, what would that be? Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Hmm. Mm. Hmm. Yeah, I think that’s a really honest answer. I think you’re right. I think it’s really easy once you’ve had some success Um to forget how hard it was on the way like i’m small children Yeah, who then become big children forget sleepless nights and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, exactly Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha ha! Yes, it was easy. It’s very true. It’s exactly the same, isn’t it? It’s very true. Christian, we could talk all day, but we need to… Yeah, fascinating. I think the comparison between the markets is great. It’s similar and different, isn’t it? That’s what I think is exciting, is the interesting bit, is the fact it’s similar. but different, one in size and scale, but also two in funding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s fascinating. We always finish up in the same way with our guests, and we always ask the same two questions. And the first question we have for you is, if you could be the fly on a wall in a situation, where would you like to be and who would be there? And it can’t be Nigel Farage. Ha ha Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They just… Yeah, they just made them up. Ha! schedule. Mm. Hmm. Yeah, fascinating. It would be. Yeah. Hmm Taking it taking a stand. Yeah taking a stand. Yeah But but such an important conference in terms of shaping modern-day germany. Yeah, you know, it’s a vital isn’t it in the In the nation’s recent history. I must have I hadn’t realized that until I was reading some books of how How hard from the end of the second world war? I’m not going to say this, the poor old German prisons of war, you know, some of them weren’t returned until the 50s. Wow. From Russia, you know, from Russia, you just think, that’s nuts, you know, that’s like nine or ten years after the Second World War ended. You just sort of don’t get it, really. Yeah, it’s mad, isn’t it? Mm. Well. Hmm. Yeah, that would be interesting. That would be interesting. Amazing. And then I’ll follow up questions. If you could meet somebody, who would you like the opportunity to sit down and have a glass of beer or a cup of coffee with? And it’s not Faraj again. Huh? Hmm. Yeah, fascinating. Yeah. Yeah election. Yeah Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think I’d like to sit in on that one as well. Yeah, and I wonder whether he has a sense that he had. No idea of the beast he was building. I remember there’s a I don’t know if it’s available in germany or not but on net in the uk on netflix. There’s a program called social dilemma and that’s about um social networks and there’s a piece on um facebook and there’s one part where um, I think they talked to or there’s a there’s a camera in an office with martin zuckerberg and he has a A sticker over his camera on his laptop and I remember seeing that thinking to social network who already doesn’t feel comfortable with having his camera visible to other people because there’s ways of accessing that information but yeah I doubt that anybody knew that social networks were going to become as powerful as they are. And the damage they cause. I mean you know like you say you’re talking about a general election in America and being able to use but just being able to use influence and manipulating people in a way to get the outcome vote in one of the most powerful countries on the planet. It’s quite remarkable the power they’ve got. Cambridge Analytics was that the one, wasn’t it? That’s right, yeah. Sort of scary. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. It’s interesting when you look at somebody like Bill Gates who now obviously is not so Involved in Microsoft having set it up and look at the work that he’s doing trying to you know, eradicate You know malaria and other conditions from around the world you wonder if somebody of Mark Zuckerberg’s age He could devote the next part of his life to actually trying to become philanthropic Yeah, trying to redress the balance in terms of how that’s Elon was saying was all yes Yeah, or he might kill us all or He might kill us all, yeah. He puts all on a rocket and sends us somewhere. Yeah. I mean, it’s a great point to finish on. That’s a great message to finish on. Thank you very much indeed for your time. It’s been brilliant speaking to you. Fabulous. If you find yourself in London, we will definitely go out. And if I find myself in Germany, I’ll give you a call. It’d be lovely to spend some more time together. Not at all. No, brilliant. Thanks, Christian. Keep well. That’s great.
