Dentology Podcast with Jason Wong

Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Dr Jason Wong

Episode release date – Monday 4 September 2023

Andy & Chris:
Here we are again. Another one. It is. Another one, Dentology, don’t you love it? Exciting today. Very exciting. It’s rare you get to speak to somebody quite early on in a new role. Quite often people are quite well established in their position. So to get those fresh insights of where they are is gonna be really interesting. I think we’ve been super fortunate. We have, we have. Super fortunate. Very honored. We are very honored. Today, today, we have Dr. Jason Wong joining us. And Jason is a dentist. also partner at the Moultings Dental Practice in Grantham. In 2020 awarded an MBE for services to dentistry and oral health and recently been appointed as interim chief dental officer. Hello Jason how are you? My goodness what a business card that is.

Jason Wong:
I heard it because… Yeah, very well, thank you. Yeah, and thanks for that intro.

Andy & Chris:
Good. No, no, it’s delightful to have you with us. Thank you for coming on. And just as I go through the list of things you do, I’m agog that you’ve actually got time to talk to us because you’ve also got a very busy life running out before you.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, no, it’s a pleasure to speak to you both and, you know, good to have the conversation. And yeah, I’ve obviously stacked the rest of the day before and after, but that’s

Andy & Chris:
Hahahaha

Jason Wong:
situation normal, you know. So

Andy & Chris:
Yes,

Jason Wong:
no,

Andy & Chris:
sir.

Jason Wong:
pleasure to be here, seriously.

Andy & Chris:
But there is a phrase, isn’t there? I think there’s a phrase which is, if you want something done, ask a busy person.

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
That’s it, yeah. And there’s no doubt that I think the busier we all get, we just become very adaptable and have this ability to squeeze things in because you’ve got a lot to get through. So

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
I think you’re certainly in that phase. But to start with- Master of plate spinning. Yeah, yeah. Could we talk about perhaps the biggest impact on our lives, which is PPE, just to start with. And- PPE isn’t perhaps where you think it’s going. PPE is your parents’ postcode and education. I think those are the things

Jason Wong:
Alright.

Andy & Chris:
that kind of are rocks that put us together. Every student is gonna be a boring dental chat. Oh, PPE, we’ve had enough of that. How much does that mask cost? Exactly, but just thinking in terms of kind of parents’ postcode and education, can you kind of give us a sense of your teenage years? What was it like growing up as Jason Wong?

Jason Wong:
So I mean, I was at school in Bedford actually, as a sort of teenager.

Andy & Chris:
Okay.

Jason Wong:
boarding school mainly throughout my childhood. So originally from Malaysia, so you’re saying my parents, my dad’s a GP and I was sort of sent over from an early age for education purposes. So, and so yeah, very much enjoyed that time until.

Andy & Chris:
So were you over here alone then Jason, for your education?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I had my brothers who were here at the time, but yeah, essentially that was the case. So that was during the holidays, we’d see them, but yeah, very much sort of alone. And I suppose, you know, had to be quite sociable as well, because

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
even during holiday times we’d be hanging out with friends, etc. So that was, you know, I think

Andy & Chris:
Thank you.

Jason Wong:
that was a good time before obviously going to dental school. uh… it’s just i think it’s time to schooling really

Andy & Chris:
They always describe boarding school as character building,

Jason Wong:
Hehehehehe

Andy & Chris:
don’t they? Which I think is either… It’s an all-encompassing role of boarding school, is a character building. The good things and the bad

Jason Wong:
I’m going to go ahead and turn it off.

Andy & Chris:
things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you then… Yes, you actually finished your school and you went to Birmingham Dental School

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
back in 95. I’ve heard you say before that you said your father’s a GP, and you said that you’ve got a rebellious streak, so you weren’t going to be a GP, you were going to be a dentist, because you’re… Are you the rebellious type?

Jason Wong:
Well, not exactly, but it was a rebellion. So no, I don’t think I fall into the rebellious type, but there was this discussion. And, you know, I mean, in the early days, we actually lived above the surgery. So, you know, my dad had this practice downstairs and we’d actually lived upstairs. So, I mean, when

Andy & Chris:
No.

Jason Wong:
it came to it, one of the kind of decisions was, you know, what was appealing, what could you go and do? There wasn’t. massive restriction but there was a little bit of a rebellion in that and to this day I always think, you know, when I looked at the options at the time and now, I always think that as a professional we always seem a little bit more down about what it is that we have. very positive about the profession,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
about what we’re doing at the moment. And I know other colleagues whose children have gone into it, mine haven’t, but who think it’s a really good profession to be part of. And part of the issue is, you know, why, if it’s such a great profession to be part of, why do we get so down on it, really? So, you know, at the

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
time it was a fairly naïve decision and, yes, a semi-rebellion, if you like. like, but actually

Andy & Chris:
Right.

Jason Wong:
never regretted that from that moment.

Andy & Chris:
No, no rebellion with a small arm. Yeah,

Jason Wong:
Yeah, yeah,

Andy & Chris:
one

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
of the things we’ve seen actually isn’t it as we were saying that In the last probably five years, there’s definitely a much Higher impact of dentists in the fact of they start to We’re seeing them feeling better about themselves a bit more Because we think actually the public is feeling a bit more positive about dentistry than it might have done Do you think that sort of feels about right?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, yes, I think. I mean, there’s always been a disconnect. So if you ask the public, the public doesn’t have a great opinion about the profession, but they have a great opinion, but their own dentists. As in,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
as in, you know, we’re not

Andy & Chris:
yeah,

Jason Wong:
sure

Andy & Chris:
that’s

Jason Wong:
about

Andy & Chris:
true.

Jason Wong:
them, but my, my guy or my girl is okay, but you know, but everything

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
else is not. So, so yeah, but I think part of the work I do is to try and improve that perception. I mean, the pandemic has definitely brought, you know, the importance of of dentistry and oral health well into the limelight. I think for many years

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
it wasn’t seen as this crucial part and because of what happened and how access has gone down, it’s massively risen in the public consciousness, the political

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
agenda as well, which is the issue that we always had previously, which was you’re trying to push an agenda on a service something in that region.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
But of course, we’re trying to push on the agenda to have oral health sort of integrated in all aspects of general healthcare.

Andy & Chris:
And I think it’s always a shame. Obviously, we’re… very fortunate, we get to speak to and see hundreds of dentists a year. And it always saddens me when dentists kind of lose sight of the impact they have on patients. Now it really is a life changing profession.

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
And when you see people who feel downtrodden or downbeaten because of perhaps external pressures or red tape or bureaucracy, whatever it might be, and they’ve lost sight of, you know, the impact on confidence and wellbeing and how that person

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
feels about themselves or their ability to go to an interview and feel more confident. you know, with their partner, whatever it might be. And when I see dentists and being non-clinical, argued that it’s easier for us to see. But when you see a dentist who’s fallen out of love with the profession, it is

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
sad because it is, it’s a phenomenal job. It really

Jason Wong:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
is an incredible job to impact people’s life and wellbeing in that way.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, yeah, totally agree. And I think that part of that is really getting ourselves to see the situation that we’re in and perhaps see things in a more positive light than we have been doing. But yeah, I think the point you raise about the last five years, I think that rather than, it’s not so much the image, but the importance of dentistry and oral health has definitely gone up. And that’s going to impact obviously on sort of frontline services.

Andy & Chris:
It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because anecdotally over the years that, you know, we’ve dealt with dentists, you would have had them say, yeah, it was almost, they were told, well, he didn’t make it as a doctor. So you’re now going to be a dentist. There was almost that sort of like, they’re undercurrent now, but it’s, it’s interesting because from the, a lot of the young guys that we talked to, they didn’t ever want to be a doctor. Like, you know, they, they wanted to be a dentist. I think that’s a different change.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I think back in the day, the grades necessary to get in was slightly lower. So that’s probably where you got that from, which is grades

Andy & Chris:
Right.

Jason Wong:
getting lower. But I mean, the guys nowadays who get into dental school are straight A students

Andy & Chris:
auch

Jason Wong:
from young age, very much more academic and not necessarily a brilliant thing. The dental curriculum is very academic in its own right as well. Sorry, I’m getting a. call would you believe on the phone? Sorry about that. So

Andy & Chris:
No,

Jason Wong:
yeah

Andy & Chris:
you’re in demand, you’re in demand. Ha ha ha.

Jason Wong:
so I think that’s something I think we’ve got to look at. Is it absolutely necessary to… for a dental school course to be so academic. And when 95% of our profession goes into being a general dentist in practice. You

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm

Jason Wong:
have this really highly academic qualification system that then produces someone where the skillset you need actually very much more people skills, practical skills orientated.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
And there is a slight disconnect there. I understand we want to keep this issue about having high sort of academic rigor, but there is this question mark in the back of my head that do you need a straight

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
A student to go through in order to care for a population base? you know for

Andy & Chris:
It’s almost a bit like nursing

Jason Wong:
the rest

Andy & Chris:
in

Jason Wong:
of the

Andy & Chris:
a way,

Jason Wong:
career

Andy & Chris:
isn’t it? You know, as in not in dental nursing, but in, you know, I think that sometimes with nursing is that it’s become so… academic, whereas actually, as you’re saying, Jason, really, you want people who are going to care. I mean, I know that you’ve got to have a certain level, but I think you’re right, and I don’t know whether you can answer this question, but you might be able to do as a principal. Things that we’re told by the guys that we deal with is the practical application of dental school in associates has changed over the years, whereas some of the guys that are coming out now can’t do or have had minimal experience of some of the things that someone maybe 10 years ago would have done.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I mean, I think the level of clinical experience has dropped a little, but then so have the intervention. But I think mostly, I think it’s part of the work that I’m sure we’ll get onto it that I’ve been trying to do, which is looking at the culture in which we practice under as to how people feel about carrying out certain procedures, what they feel the risks are, both to them

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
and the treatments that they’re carrying out. So yeah, definitely, I think that something that, but it’s so, the job is so people-based. You know, whether

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
you satisfy what your patient is asking for, what they demand, what they need,

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
as well as how you deal with colleagues and everything else. But actually,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
when we assess people, whether they can go in, we do it almost purely or predominantly

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
on these sort of academic achievements.

Andy & Chris:
And yeah, and I think because of the nature of how. the kind of schooling and education system works in the UK, people tend to do their GCSEs, their A-levels, and then go straight from A-levels to university. So there isn’t actually much life experience. It’s education, and then you get spat out into the real world. And suddenly now you need to have great communication skills. You need to be able to read people. And there isn’t necessarily the broader life experience that goes with that. I remember many years ago, I think it was when Pat Conway was at Birmingham. talked about trying to do some non-clinical courses with him. Communication skills. Yeah, and he said there just isn’t the space. He said the program is so full. you

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
know, there just isn’t the space to actually fit anything in other than just getting through the clinical work. And it does feel like there’s a gap. And I guess the FD year helps, but it, but it,

Jason Wong:
It does,

Andy & Chris:
but

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
you know, at that point you kind of also kind of trying to hone your clinical experience, but there’s a lot, there’s a lot to be taken in quite early. Well, it’s like Raj was Raj Ratan where we were at, we were at a dental, global dental collective and it was lots of young dentists and it was quite interesting. There was a bit about the GDC and complaints and sort of, to

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
avoid

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
a complaint and Radhe’s advice was just build better relationships

Jason Wong:
Yes?

Andy & Chris:
he said build better relationships with your patients which is back to what you’re saying Jason you know understand how to talk to people and deal with people

Jason Wong:
Exactly.

Andy & Chris:
it’s fascinating yeah there is a gap isn’t there this is gap as you say it’s a communication bit which you can teach but some people have it and some people don’t

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
naturally yeah

Jason Wong:
And it’s a balance. I mean, you

Andy & Chris:
so

Jason Wong:
raised

Andy & Chris:
just

Jason Wong:
the nursing situation, but there is a balance. The question is, in order to care, do you need a degree? I mean, that’s one of the issue.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
And so there is a balance in terms of the workforce. You need those that are doing certain bits that requires that. But yeah, overall, it’s something that I think we need to think about. And also distribution, I think, across the country in terms of the backgrounds of people, why there’s a bigger workforce issue in rural localities and things like that are things that we need to think

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
about in terms of people getting into dental school.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm So just back to your career, you come out of Birmingham, and now you’re a partner in a pretty significant practice in Grantham. What

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
was your pathway from graduation through to being a partner at Maltings? Maggie Thatcher, he was really

Jason Wong:
That’s

Andy & Chris:
attracted

Jason Wong:
it.

Andy & Chris:
to Maggie Thatcher. She was Grantham, wasn’t she? Well, I think the two

Jason Wong:
I

Andy & Chris:
things

Jason Wong:
think that’s…

Andy & Chris:
I even know about Grantham is, is Margaret Thatcher, and it was the first cinema in the country. The first cinema in the country was in Grantham. The other one I know, that it was named the most boring town in the country. Oh, don’t say that. about

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
that, Jason.

Jason Wong:
it

Andy & Chris:
It’s

Jason Wong:
was.

Andy & Chris:
a long time ago. I’m

Jason Wong:
The

Andy & Chris:
sure

Jason Wong:
only

Andy & Chris:
it’s got a lot better now.

Jason Wong:
thing you missed off is Isaac Newton. But apart from that, yes,

Andy & Chris:
I was going to say,

Jason Wong:
Maggie Thatcher.

Andy & Chris:
I was going to mention that because I was in a train station at Grantham and there was this whole thing about Isaac Newton which did

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
surprise me somewhat but anyway yeah.

Jason Wong:
yeah, so

Andy & Chris:
Sorry,

Jason Wong:
yes,

Andy & Chris:
back

Jason Wong:
of course,

Andy & Chris:
to you, sorry.

Jason Wong:
you can imagine, yeah, background of being born in Malaysia, brought

Andy & Chris:
Cough.

Jason Wong:
up in London at a boarding school, why would I end up, well actually, I mean, I met my wife at a dental school, she’s a dentist, and when we… We’re in our third and fourth year. Her dad sadly passed away. So actually when we were looking for, at the time, VT jobs, the foundation jobs, we actually said, well, we’ll just, as an initial move, let’s go back, make sure her mom’s okay. So actually initially there wasn’t this inbuilt thing that was where we were going to live. But

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
we sort of moved back initially and actually have stayed ever since. and I was very happy at the practice that I was at and it was a big practice and stayed on as an associate and really I suppose what in this day and age should be seen as quite early, too early probably but within three years of qualifying taking on the partnership for the practice.

Andy & Chris:
Wow. So you did your VT at the Maltings, then stayed on as

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
an associate and then became partner. So

Jason Wong:
yeah, that’s

Andy & Chris:
it was

Jason Wong:
right.

Andy & Chris:
all the way through.

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
Wow.

Jason Wong:
all the way through, so.

Andy & Chris:
That’s really quite a challenge. That’s a challenge though, isn’t it? Cause you start as a VT to

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
then become a partner. It’s almost a bit like being promoted in house, isn’t it? Cause everyone remembers you as what you used to be. So that’s probably a challenge

Jason Wong:
Yeah, yeah

Andy & Chris:
in itself. And it happened quickly for you as well, didn’t

Jason Wong:
It did

Andy & Chris:
it?

Jason Wong:
yeah it did it I mean I suppose yeah, as you say quite a challenge good job It was all right at the beginning. Otherwise people remember you for things that you did as a vt

Andy & Chris:
Hahahaha!

Jason Wong:
But no, it was it was fine. And actually to I mean when you look at it actually at the time The practice was run by three Three three guys who were late 50s uh… approaching sixty years of them in concern was whether they could ever retire and offload the

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
place You know, so that makes you

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
sort of wonder just what changed, you know, when I suggested that I wanted to buy into the practice, you know, Han was bitten off very firmly immediately

Andy & Chris:
Right.

Jason Wong:
and one of

Andy & Chris:
Okay.

Jason Wong:
them

Andy & Chris:
It’s

Jason Wong:
said,

Andy & Chris:
amazing

Jason Wong:
thank God.

Andy & Chris:
how those

Jason Wong:
Now,

Andy & Chris:
times change,

Jason Wong:
yeah,

Andy & Chris:
isn’t it now?

Jason Wong:
absolutely. Thank God

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
now it means in a few years I can retire was what one of them sort of shouted because at

Andy & Chris:
Yeah?

Jason Wong:
the time literally

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
nobody wanted it, you know, at that time. But yeah, I suppose, you know,

Andy & Chris:
Very

Jason Wong:
in

Andy & Chris:
front

Jason Wong:
retro…

Andy & Chris:
foot though. Front

Jason Wong:
Yeah?

Andy & Chris:
foot to ask Jason. Especially when you were, what’s that, probably about, what’s that, 26, 27, something like that?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, something like that. Yeah, and

Andy & Chris:
flip.

Jason Wong:
yeah, I also got married and we had our first child all in that same year. So I do remember that year

Andy & Chris:
So

Jason Wong:
being

Andy & Chris:
you thought, hey, why

Jason Wong:
a fairly

Andy & Chris:
not?

Jason Wong:
hectic, yeah, just take everything in one go. So no, that was

Andy & Chris:
Ha

Jason Wong:
pretty good.

Andy & Chris:
ha ha!

Jason Wong:
But again, no regrets. The practice is great. We’ve changed it very significantly. But yeah, so from, as you say, FD to… to partnership or within quite a short period of time. And when I speak to young dentists, I always mention that. I said, I think I was brought up in simpler times, because when we went through dental school, the objective was to get out, be in the dentist, and if you like to buy into the place, if not, you just… The pinnacle and the culmination was being a general dentist in practice. I kind of wonder whether some of the heights that people are aiming for are really, really a bit too high that you put so much pressure on yourself. Because that’s my recollection in my peer group was that was it. You pass finals, you got there. And once you get and you find somewhere that you like, you buy in. That was really all the high level ambition that we had. None of the quite sort of quite. quite high higher level of fulfillment that people seem to be coming for right now.

Andy & Chris:
And I think back then, Jason, I think your exposure to people outside of your media environment would have perhaps been going to an LDC meeting. That kind of, you’d have bumped into a few other dentists at a local meeting. So your vision and your exposure, you know, we kind of teach you on the edge of social media here, but it’s so much easier to see what other people are doing. And so kind of your

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
aspirations and your ambitions shift based on what other people are doing. Whereas back in your day and back in the day for us, which is kind of pre-digital, you

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
were happening so you only had

Jason Wong:
No,

Andy & Chris:
your

Jason Wong:
no,

Andy & Chris:
local

Jason Wong:
no.

Andy & Chris:
community

Jason Wong:
There wasn’t

Andy & Chris:
to benchmark

Jason Wong:
a pressure.

Andy & Chris:
yourself against.

Jason Wong:
Yeah. Yeah, it’s almost

Andy & Chris:
Yes,

Jason Wong:
a peer

Andy & Chris:
yeah,

Jason Wong:
pressure

Andy & Chris:
which in…

Jason Wong:
to do something more. You’re quite right. I mean, I joined the

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
LDC

Andy & Chris:
yeah,

Jason Wong:
quite

Andy & Chris:
definitely.

Jason Wong:
early on in the day as well. And Lincolnshire,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Wong:
I mean, what

Andy & Chris:
Probably

Jason Wong:
it was,

Andy & Chris:
brought

Jason Wong:
you

Andy & Chris:
the

Jason Wong:
know,

Andy & Chris:
average

Jason Wong:
the…

Andy & Chris:
age down.

Jason Wong:
Oh definitely, yeah. It was very much the tie, the cravat and the blazer brigade, you know? That’s how, you know, nobody would turn up in jeans for a meeting like that

Andy & Chris:
I

Jason Wong:
back

Andy & Chris:
can

Jason Wong:
in

Andy & Chris:
almost

Jason Wong:
the day.

Andy & Chris:
imagine someone saying, I think you’ve come to the wrong room, sir.

Jason Wong:
I think I was the youngest member of the LDC. I became the youngest secretary they’d ever had. And I think sort of eight years later, I was still the youngest member of the LDC.

Andy & Chris:
hahahaha

Jason Wong:
But that might have been just us, but I mean, things are probably a bit different. But yes, you’re quite right. That was how, and you know, going to meetings, meeting up with colleagues, that was the conversation. That was what we’re doing.

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
And… But yes, that’s kind of how I progressed really at that time.

Andy & Chris:
So the practice you’ve got, you’ve now got 12 surgeries,

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
14, 15 clinicians, the support team that goes with that. Given all the other things you do within dentistry, what’s your secret source for managing a practice? Because obviously you’ve got lots of calls on your time, but you’ve obviously been there as a partner for quite a while. I know you have a partner who works with you, but

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
how do you manage that? How do you divide that up?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I mean,

Andy & Chris:
And still

Jason Wong:
I,

Andy & Chris:
not look knackered?

Jason Wong:
well, yeah, I think, I think sometimes I do get the pressure on, you know, you need to be here for this or things like that. And I am there clinically, of course, but there’s also running the practice. So yeah, very, I think very early on I worked out you needed to be able to delegate and needed to have the right people in the

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
right places. So

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
when people say, oh, have you got, you know, when I first started, some people didn’t have practice managers. I mean, they used to have all their paperwork

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
in piles in their kitchen table and work till 11 o’clock to do stuff and some even cleaned their own practice and stuff like that. But actually, you know, I think nowadays, unless you’re really small, you’d find most practice have a manager. We have three effectively. So we have a conventional sort of practice manager who… who’s worked for us, promoted from within. She was our head receptionist. We have, again, promoted from within a head nurse that’s become our sort of clinical lead. So she makes sure that clinically, all the compliance staff, CQC staff, PPE, you know, everything is out there to her, how the things is rotated. And then more recently, when the number of partners sort of began to drop, we brought in… again promoted from within a business manager from who is our head receptionist. And I say to her that her role is just to make sure we keep alive basically. So she sort of crunched the kind of numbers and do that. And I have to confess, I’m not a business person. I don’t think I am. Obviously, I own the business, as you say, and there’s 49 people that work with us in one form

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
or another. But I very much was of the school of thought that, if you do the right things, give the service that people want, then you’ll be okay. I recognize it’s a lot more complicated than that right now, but I’m very much in the space of, I’m a clinician and I try not to let the business side affect it. Obviously, you have to because in order to survive. So the way that I deal with it is, we literally employ these three ladies who… work for us and be promoted from

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
within. They have their roles, they do that. We meet up with them once a week, to run through the management and very much

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
try and delegate that leadership down to them with only, although they do stray from that, with only the very critical stuff that they feel they can’t do for the two of us to intervene. So,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah. It sounds like

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
a great system. It sounds like a great system.

Jason Wong:
I suspect it’s the only way that Yeah, I suppose the only way that it could work for me just because if you know sometimes I work within the practice so that I can be there, you know, taking calls

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
and things, but I could be there to give answers, support, but mostly it’s done through that and

Andy & Chris:
It’s…

Jason Wong:
it’s probably the only way it would work.

Andy & Chris:
It’s an interesting one, isn’t it? Because we quite often talk to practice owners and we say to them, the next thing you need to kick on is to actually create this management role so as it frees you up. But quite often… they won’t do it, you know, they won’t do it because either, quite often financially, they don’t want to spend the money and they don’t want to lose that control. But we say it’s the only way you can really kick on because ultimately you’ve only got certain hours in the day. And I think there’s also two things. I think one, it’s the acknowledgement that you spent five years at dental school learning how to be a really good dentist. You’re not naturally business people. That doesn’t mean you can’t become good business people, but filling that gap with other people good thing to do. But I think you also need to, and you’ve nailed this, you need to understand the art of delegation. So that’s not abdication. It’s

Jason Wong:
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris:
not

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
getting somebody to do the job and keep interfering. It’s not kind of keep picking over the small stuff. It’s genuinely putting in place good people and then getting out of the way. And I think when you do that, I think you actually create more time for yourself. How many clinical days do you do,

Jason Wong:
So, I mean, of course that’s just changed with taking on this new role.

Andy & Chris:
Sure.

Jason Wong:
Previous to that, it was two and a half,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
but now

Andy & Chris:
Okay.

Jason Wong:
I’m

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
probably down to one and a bit. Oh,

Andy & Chris:
But without that management structure, there’s no way you

Jason Wong:
no

Andy & Chris:
could have

Jason Wong:
way.

Andy & Chris:
done two and a half.

Jason Wong:
None,

Andy & Chris:
So having

Jason Wong:
no.

Andy & Chris:
that, it actually frees you up to do the bit that you’re most qualified for. So it’s a smart thing to do. And I think quite often people who own practices, they find the business bit quite stressful because

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
they’re not equipped for it to the same extent. When they’re in a surgery, they’re in flow. They’re

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
trained for it. They know what they’re doing. They’re working with their nose. They’re treating a patient. That’s what they really, really love doing. It’s when

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
they step out of the surgery, it becomes harder work. So having that management system. And the nonsense is that is the bit they don’t like, but they won’t recruit someone to do that bit to take it

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
away from them. Yeah.

Jason Wong:
yeah, that’s

Andy & Chris:
It’s

Jason Wong:
what I was

Andy & Chris:
funny.

Jason Wong:
meaning.

Andy & Chris:
It’s strange.

Jason Wong:
And it was a true story that I, you know, back in the day would walk in to see friends who owned their own practice, usually smaller practices, and their kitchen table is stacked up with stuff. And I,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
you know,

Andy & Chris:
it’s

Jason Wong:
I

Andy & Chris:
alright.

Jason Wong:
then turn around and I say, look, you know, so what are you doing? Well, you know, 10 o’clock at night, 11 o’clock at night, they’re still doing stuff in order to save, obviously, the cost of bringing someone in to do it.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
I, you know, we had a practice manager. where we promoted Practice Manager actually not long after I joined the partnership and that was the first one that we had. those days the partners

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
did quite a lot but yeah, I do believe in that and I believe in that even with the work that I do with the office now, which is you know, you need to make

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
sure you try and find good people and then make sure and it’s a really thin dividing line between having delegation and abdication or

Andy & Chris:
Oh,

Jason Wong:
trying

Andy & Chris:
definitely,

Jason Wong:
to have a

Andy & Chris:
yeah.

Jason Wong:
control that is a real issue I’m not suggesting I get it right all the time, but I try and get it right all the time is probably where I’m coming from

Andy & Chris:
Before we get to your most recent role in dentistry as CDO, in the introduction we said that you got a well-deserved MBE for your services of dentistry and oral health which took you to Buckingham Palace. Most people in their lifetime are not going to go to Buckingham Palace and to take your family there must have been an incredible day.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, yeah, I mean it’s a special day. I mean it was utterly unexpected. People have asked

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
me about it and at the very first thing that I got I really thought it was a prank. But then I couldn’t

Andy & Chris:
Ha ha

Jason Wong:
work

Andy & Chris:
ha!

Jason Wong:
out who on earth would put in the effort to play a prank like that on

Andy & Chris:
Did you get a letter? Is that how it

Jason Wong:
me.

Andy & Chris:
happened? Did you get a letter Jason?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I got a letter and the letter wasn’t… it wasn’t that grand. I mean it was

Andy & Chris:
Ha

Jason Wong:
from the

Andy & Chris:
ha!

Jason Wong:
cameras and it looked like something you know if you spent a few moments on Word and did that you could work out so

Andy & Chris:
He

Jason Wong:
it’s

Andy & Chris:
could knock

Jason Wong:
my initial

Andy & Chris:
something up.

Jason Wong:
my initial response

Andy & Chris:
Did you

Jason Wong:
and

Andy & Chris:
expect

Jason Wong:
I…

Andy & Chris:
some footman to appear on horseback with a scroll?

Jason Wong:
no

Andy & Chris:
Is that

Jason Wong:
I don’t

Andy & Chris:
what

Jason Wong:
know

Andy & Chris:
you were

Jason Wong:
some

Andy & Chris:
expecting?

Jason Wong:
you know better quality paper, the final thing had better quality paper or whatever, all that kind of stuff. No, I didn’t, I don’t know what to expect. I mean it wasn’t on my radar, I genuinely, you know, and it wasn’t on my radar and I still to this day don’t know. who put me up for it. I’m told that it started in a local sense because of the work that I was doing on oral health in Leicester, but obviously others did. So yeah, very, very sort of special to find that out. In terms of going to Buckingham Palace, it’s a bit of a surreal story because I think it was March the 11th, 2020 that was when it, so it was the New Year’s Honest, but 2020 when it

Andy & Chris:
No,

Jason Wong:
happened.

Andy & Chris:
oh excellent.

Jason Wong:
So if you are very, very good at recollecting. you will know that we were on the verge of lockdown. This was the

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Wong:
very last session that they did actually. They didn’t necessarily

Andy & Chris:
Right.

Jason Wong:
know that at the time. London was deserted.

Andy & Chris:
before Paddy’s Day. Yeah.

Jason Wong:
You know, yeah, so London was virtually deserted. Obviously we were in this hall for, you know. 90 odd people, 100 people. And

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
yeah, as you say, it was a very special day, incredible really. And it still seems a little surreal, as I said, because I had no part in knowing kind of anything about it at all until it landed really.

Andy & Chris:
Wow. No, well deserved. I mean,

Jason Wong:
Thank you.

Andy & Chris:
yeah, you’re, well, I think your MBA testaments, your commitment to dentistry and also the work that you’ve done with the local dental networks. Those years

Jason Wong:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
at the LDC, that’s what it is. Yeah, but also that those environments require… people like you with strong opinions to voice them and those opinions come from a good place to better the profession. Do you think we’re moving into an environment where it’s becoming harder to share your opinion, particularly with online bullying, trolling, cancel

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
culture type stuff. Is it getting harder for people to stand up for something and be prepared to have those opinions perhaps like you had in the early part of your career and still today?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I mean, I think part of the role that I’ve got at the moment is to try and sort of enhance and develop local leadership, so people who

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
eventually hopefully will replace us now. And I think that it is, and it depends which aspect. So I mean, I think that there is an environment where that it… it seems like if you disagree on something that somehow, you know, the torrent and the abuse kind of has to go with it. And I don’t see why that is. And the phrase of you can disagree without being disagreeable is something that I do mention

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
to people, because I just don’t see any reasoning for it. So I think

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
there are two aspects. I think one is, you know, I think there’s no excuse for, as you say, you know, the cancer culture, extreme kind of views that you can’t hold that view and trying to do that. But there’s a different level which is if you have a view and which someone disagrees with and suddenly it becomes a personal attack line which sort of,

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
you know, when someone’s

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Wong:
trying to, you know, someone’s trying to, the positivity thing. I mean, I’ve been called ridiculous.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
ridiculously positive I think was one phrase and you know people almost say you can’t possibly do

Andy & Chris:
Ridiculously

Jason Wong:
that.

Andy & Chris:
positive. That sounds like a compliment

Jason Wong:
Well,

Andy & Chris:
to me.

Jason Wong:
I don’t know, you know, and if you try and do affect anything in the system, it’s supposedly you’re rearranging the deck chairs whilst the Titanic goes down. So

Andy & Chris:
Rather Titanic

Jason Wong:
you know,

Andy & Chris:
six. Mm-hmm

Jason Wong:
it’s kind of that kind of thing. And I just think, well, you know, we should as a profession. I mean, a professional should. be able to have a view. I mean, that is the instance. So, you

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
know, trying to get a group of professionals should be quite difficult because it’s a bit like herding cats, isn’t it? But so everyone should

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
be able to have that view. And I think that, you know, you should be able to enhance that view. You should then be able to debate those. But I think you’re right. I think it is becoming more difficult. And social media is probably reasoning for it, partly because

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
it voices the extreme views. So by

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
its very nature, it doesn’t give voice to the moderates. So most people sit in that moderate.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
But even, I don’t know whether there are updated figures, but something like only 5% of people actually ever comment. So you’ve got 95%

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
of people who actually look, and probably have that view. And then, of course, then you’ve got the counterarguments, which comes from the two sort of extreme wing of that argument.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
And of course, that then goes on, and then you create this culture, which then tells people what they can and can’t think. I don’t see why that’s necessary, if I’m honest, but I’ve never been able to see that.

Andy & Chris:
I agree.

Jason Wong:
I just think you

Andy & Chris:
I went for

Jason Wong:
should just

Andy & Chris:
schools.

Jason Wong:
sit around. Sorry?

Andy & Chris:
I Remember when I went at my school, we did a you know, we had debates, you know, they would It was part of our curriculum to have a debate with, you know, the rest of your class. And in a way you think, well, why aren’t, I mean, I presume schools maybe don’t do it, but it’s, it is to try and, it’s okay to have a paging views. As you say, Jason, it’s

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
when it all gets

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
horrendously personal because I, you know, you’re fat or whatever it is. I think it’s healthy because if all you do is surround yourself with people that share the same view as you, how are you ever going to broaden your knowledge or your experiences or get might help you put you on a better path or a different direction.

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
If it’s as binary as you agree with me or you’re wrong, that’s hopeless.

Jason Wong:
It

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
is, it

Andy & Chris:
there’s

Jason Wong:
is.

Andy & Chris:
nowhere in between. It is.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I mean I’ve always felt and this is even before this sort of you know the equality sort of diversity Agenda Became sort of more prominent was that you do need To the diversity of thought in order to make the right

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
decisions because as you say, you know, everyone’s sort of life experiences are slightly different and if you Surround yourself with people that have the same views and have the same background maybe and everything else

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
then But you aren’t going to have that diversity of decision making, which is what’s going to, at the end of the day, whether in business or whether in sort of policy terms and working for the NHS and with the Department of Health, that actually you’re not going to be able to give a good decision making and good advice if you don’t have that diversity of thought within your own teams.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm. I just say life in general. You know, just living your daily life. Exactly, exactly. So just changing tack slightly, in June 2020, you joined the office as Deputy CDO. June 2020 was an incredibly interesting time to join the office, because I guess we were just coming out of- Before or after the 8th of June. Yeah, I was going

Jason Wong:
Well.

Andy & Chris:
to say, it was 23rd of March to the 8th of June was when everybody downed Tours. Just- What was the sense of the office at that time? Was it in turmoil? Were there challenges? Were you coming in as kind of a fresh face that was able to bring some new energy to a team that was feeling a bit knackered?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, that’s a good question.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, or a scapegoat.

Jason Wong:
So just

Andy & Chris:
No, sorry.

Jason Wong:
to clarify, my interview was on the 8th of June.

Andy & Chris:
Oh no, excellent.

Jason Wong:
So

Andy & Chris:
Wow.

Jason Wong:
at lunchtime where…

Andy & Chris:
Did you

Jason Wong:
Sorry,

Andy & Chris:
say in

Jason Wong:
I heard

Andy & Chris:
your

Jason Wong:
he

Andy & Chris:
interview,

Jason Wong:
was on the…

Andy & Chris:
give me the job, I’ll have dentistry open by tomorrow? That’s what you should have said.

Jason Wong:
No, no, no approval for me to speak to you. But at that time, it was quite… So in the morning, I was speaking to Radio Lincolnshire about the reopening of dentistry in Lincolnshire in the press.

Andy & Chris:
Brilliant.

Jason Wong:
I then did emergencies, non-AGP emergencies throughout the morning. And then at lunchtime, I broke and I had my interview for the role at lunchtime. And then I went

Andy & Chris:
Absolutely,

Jason Wong:
back, did

Andy & Chris:
fabulous.

Jason Wong:
a few more emergencies and finished the day. So

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
I remember the day pretty well. So, and then of course,

Andy & Chris:
It was a

Jason Wong:
the

Andy & Chris:
diverse

Jason Wong:
news comes

Andy & Chris:
day.

Jason Wong:
through. It was a diverse day, but that is kind of how I’ve operated for many years. And it was quite a few years ago. one of the medical directors at the time that I reported to said to me, and I think he said this in order to get me to take on a bigger area and more time to the role was, was diversity in your work actually leads to longevity of your career. So what he was trying to say

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
is, you only give a day a week to me, I want to give two. Now whether he said that as a way of making me

Andy & Chris:
Ha ha

Jason Wong:
take

Andy & Chris:
ha!

Jason Wong:
that on or not. did have a point because you know when things get tough in one end you know when you change it’s not quite a holiday but actually the change of complete change of environment and where you’re

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
at actually does give you a little bit more kind of sort of energy and an approach to it so I think that as is a is a massive advantage that I’ve got that. And I remember tough times when I was working with regional local commissioners, they would actually say, oh, you’ve got, tomorrow you go back to the practice, lucky you. But then on the other hand,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
dentists think that you’re only at work if you’ve got patients sitting in front of you. This is one of the things that our profession does, which is really weird. So I’ve actually, after many years, finally sort of got it out of my staff that as I walk out the door, have a nice day off tomorrow. That’s what they’re thinking.

Andy & Chris:
It’s funny you say that Jason, the amount of dentists when if I speak to my family say what have you been doing today? They say I’ve not been working and I always say to them you mean

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
you’ve not been seeing patients.

Jason Wong:
I know,

Andy & Chris:
I

Jason Wong:
I

Andy & Chris:
always

Jason Wong:
know.

Andy & Chris:
pick them up on it because it’s exactly

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
that. That they say working means I’m in the surgery with a handpiece,

Jason Wong:
Yeah!

Andy & Chris:
but there’s a load of things that you have to do to run a business or run a team or CPD, whatever it might be, that doesn’t require you to be in the surgery. I think there’s

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
a flaw in dentists that they always say that that’s work.

Jason Wong:
And in reference to your earlier point about, you know, and I was saying about friends that did that, for some reason they didn’t see that after dinner they sat down for two hours. doing the practice books rather

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
than

Andy & Chris:
that wasn’t

Jason Wong:
delegating

Andy & Chris:
working.

Jason Wong:
that as not working. If you’d asked them to see an evening session of patients, which they would probably earn quite handsomely, they would look at you and say, are you kidding? I’m

Andy & Chris:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Jason Wong:
not going to do that. But sitting at home whilst your family goes to bed trying to do stuff just doesn’t seem like work. So yeah,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
it was definitely sort of a diverse day. that I took with it was at the time, you know, it was a two and a half day kind of job, so I could. sort of split my week accordingly. I was already

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
working two days for the NHS in the Midlands as a local dental network chair, so it wasn’t a sort of huge change in terms of time commitment. There was an extra half

Andy & Chris:
Yep.

Jason Wong:
day I had to find. So that’s kind of June. Your other question about, yeah, what was, I would say, yeah, I think coming into a team, and I hope they don’t mind me saying this, and I have said it, that was pretty sort of traumatized by the events of the previous

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
three months, I would say, since the lockdown.

Andy & Chris:
Which is understandable. It wasn’t. Yeah,

Jason Wong:
It is,

Andy & Chris:
isn’t

Jason Wong:
I mean, it was

Andy & Chris:
it?

Jason Wong:
an

Andy & Chris:
It’s… Yeah.

Jason Wong:
unprecedented time for them. And

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
I think quite often the profession doesn’t understand who makes the decisions and what the processes are and how things get released and all the rest of it. But yeah, I mean, it is, I mean, from my own part during that, the sort of suspension of face-to-face, actually I found myself, whilst I might have gone to the practice, was probably working 10, 11 hours for the NHS, you know, as a side thing. And I still, for a while, would always remember that very first 9 o’clock media. I say to them, this is nothing bad, but your faces come to my face, you know, it comes to my brain every so often, had a meeting where the whole team would do and we were trying to set up 90 urgent dental care centers across the Midlands. We were

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
trying to set up workforce redeployment. We were trying to set up PPE to practices and all those kinds of things. So at the smaller scale, more regional scale, I know what they’d kind of been through. There was slightly

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
short staffed already. So my role had

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
been vacant for about sort of… a year to 18 months I think it was. So they probably

Andy & Chris:
Oh well.

Jason Wong:
hit that and you know it’s always you don’t know this thing’s coming around the corner because

Andy & Chris:
No.

Jason Wong:
if you did you know it would have been something you took into place. And yeah I suppose there was an expectation that I would bring in with the experience you know things that would relate to practice more, which I still think I do.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
I do bring that sort of aspect because you know one of from deputies at a part time to four days a week, effectively as interest, is it a conflict of interest? And I asked that question, it’s not seen to be by the system, and it’s not seen to be a huge advantage, neither is it seen to be a problem either. But the one

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
edge that it does give me is, for example, I think quite often, if you go into a room of policy makers, there’s virtually no other working clinician within that room.

Andy & Chris:
No, that’s right, definitely.

Jason Wong:
Even the ones that represent the profession, if

Andy & Chris:
Yes.

Jason Wong:
you

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
can. So I think

Andy & Chris:
Uh, uh, yeah.

Jason Wong:
it gives them that ability to say, to be able to say, well, actually this is what the workforce is finding. The other thing is

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
you can write whatever policy, but quite often it’s a binary decision by the practice owner how they decide to act. So for example,

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
if you want to increase access, you need to come up with policies that satisfy a practice owner that says, yes, I will open. my books to accept more. So you can have the most beautiful written policy of need and

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
demand and everything centrally, but if it doesn’t hit in the right place, you’ve got the issues that we can see right now, you know, the

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
sort of the access and where the profession’s at. So definitely I think that was the case. I also was invited to take part in the webinar by the GDC. There was lots of people on it. that people thought that I made, which was I didn’t have a problem. I didn’t have a worry about resilience of dental practices and the dental businesses, but I did have a worry about the resilience of the dental workforce, about exactly

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
where that was headed. The reason I made that comment was genuinely what I thought. The very first piece of work, in fact, before I was actually in post, after I’d been appointed, I was asked to do was to… run the report you may not have seen is about the resilience of dental practices after the wave on the COVID and that was in response to again you know people were saying that dentists were going to go out of business, that there were 70

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
percent in financial trouble, all that kind of thing. So I

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
was asked to do a report for the minister and for the office at the time and we looked into it and actually with the support as it turned out actually some had a pretty good year financially as a result

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
of it, whereas the jungle drums was that somehow we were going to go under, which is, by the way, unhelpful.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
If you start a rumor that the developers are gonna go under, it’s not gonna help them try and get a loan from a bank, is it? I mean, you

Andy & Chris:
No,

Jason Wong:
know,

Andy & Chris:
not soon.

Jason Wong:
I think that was the issue that we had at the time. So it was that aspect, you know, that I could come not just. with opinions but actually real life experiences to say, look, this isn’t

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
the situation and hopefully to have carried that through even now, although

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
as you would have noticed

Andy & Chris:
makes

Jason Wong:
my clinical

Andy & Chris:
it real

Jason Wong:
commitments

Andy & Chris:
world

Jason Wong:
come

Andy & Chris:
doesn’t

Jason Wong:
down.

Andy & Chris:
it? I think which is so

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
important. You’re dead right. There’s so many people who make policies who have no idea what actually goes on. Your comment about the fact of there’s no point in producing a policy that nobody can implement because either they can’t implement or they don’t want to implement

Jason Wong:
Exactly.

Andy & Chris:
it. It’s a waste of time.

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
Whereas you’ve got that beautiful foot in both camps where you can say, look, if you presented this to me, I can tell you I wouldn’t do it. I was going to say, it’s interesting you say that there kind of isn’t a conflict but there wasn’t seem to be a. benefit. I think you living and being part of a partnership in a practice, I see that as a massive benefit because like you say, the amount of times that people dream up what they think is going to be a great idea and you turn around and say, it’s cobbler’s, that is not going to work. People will not do this. That’s not going to happen. And you might as well nip it in the bud. Then it goes through a long process of policy and sign off and then get disseminated down to dentistry. And then you realize it’s not going to work. So

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
I think there’s huge value of having that skill. else you did, but do you remember that thing they did? First of all, that was rubbish. So you’re sort of tainted, aren’t you, if you’re

Jason Wong:
Yeah

Andy & Chris:
not careful? No, it’s great. I think it’s brilliant to have you still wet-fingered because I think that makes a difference because you can say, well, actually guys, that’s not going to work. I’ll tell you what would be useful, Jason, is we get lots of people who listen to this that they’re not clinicians. They work in dentistry, they’re not clinicians. And it might also be useful for some clinicians as well. But I think there’s a for the NHS contract. Could you just explain the role of the CDO

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
and where this sits in relation to the NHS, just to kind of put a baseline of where we’re at. I think a lot of people don’t necessarily understand exactly where that role sits.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, and I can understand why that is, but you’re quite right, people don’t. So, I mean, as a post, it is seen by the system as the sort of, the appointment as the head of the profession, providing clinical leadership, but actually in terms of the responsibility for producing, it sits very much within clinical policy. So as to what should go on, what is good for patients, and what is the right sort of policy to have clinically. Now of course, you don’t then go in that it’s not completely isolated from contracts, et cetera, but you’re quite right. The popular misconception is that the CDO’s responsible for contract reform is obviously not right. It’s a little bit more correct in the devolved nations, funnily enough, but not the way in which we’re structured here. The equivalent for medicine is actually the CMO who’s Chris Witte. Now I’m not sure anyone has ever tried to attack Chris Witte for GP contracts. I don’t think

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
that, and you don’t necessarily make that relationship there, but actually that is the situation that we have. Now as an office we’ve got a responsibility

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
and one of the things I’m trying to change, which we’re going through it. internally at the moment is that we need to have a narrative that actually explains that as well. It’s not

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
that we don’t have a view or don’t try and do things to improve the situation as regards contract is the fact that it isn’t mine to deliver, it isn’t ours to deliver,

Andy & Chris:
Mm-mm.

Jason Wong:
but I will tell you the views on how certain things are. And lots of opinions about how bad things are and what isn’t working, but not so much about what the alternative is. could be and even

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
now

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
after you know 17 years or whatever it is of talking about it you know it’s still you still sit a group of people together and you won’t get one unison sort of voice from everyone

Andy & Chris:
No,

Jason Wong:
so

Andy & Chris:
but

Jason Wong:
you’re right

Andy & Chris:
it’s

Jason Wong:
so

Andy & Chris:
a very easy game to play isn’t it? Picking holes in things is a very

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
easy game to play.

Jason Wong:
yeah,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
everyone can be

Andy & Chris:
rather

Jason Wong:
a,

Andy & Chris:
than giving creative solutions, yeah.

Jason Wong:
yeah, exactly, everyone can be a critic. And I think we need to be aware of also, you know, has. We talked about the priority of oral health and general health and where it is and how it’s risen, but we need to be aware of that. The role is very much we give clinical advice, both system reform we do, but also the professional leadership, the regulation piece in terms of how the workforce is, workforce well-being I think is very much part of what we do. and education directorate that we

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
work closely with. So it’s all those things together. It’s sort of the jargon is that we have sort of system leadership, which basically means you’re not in a position to be able to take responsibility for that, but it is something that you want to try and influence for the betterment. And in terms of advocacy, does come ahead of advocacy for a profession. So it’s quite right

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
that I will stand up for the profession and everything else, but in terms of the policy work, in terms of what we do, has to be, the patient sort of comes first in that aspect. But my weak is,

Andy & Chris:
I’d imagine you…

Jason Wong:
yeah go on, sorry.

Andy & Chris:
I was going to say, Jason, I imagine

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
you have to be quite thick-skinned because the comments that we heard from people about Sarah… You know, as you say, you end up becoming the target for people’s frustration and ire, don’t you? It must be quite hard to, in effect, over the years, you’ve probably managed to develop this brilliant compartmentalization that sort of says, it’s not about me,

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
it’s not about me. But it must be quite painful at times, other thought, of people just what they say.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, and I think you’re right and it’s not great and there’s no point pretending that is. And as you say, when the abuse suddenly gets sort of personal and then people sort of make stuff up and then you just think, well, we really shouldn’t be there.

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
So very much, yeah, I’m sure that’s coming down the track when you change position. I’m sure that is. And it’s part of the reason

Andy & Chris:
You’re waiting.

Jason Wong:
my… It’s part of the, yeah, yeah. And actually, I mean, to be fair, it’s part of the reason why my wife is, you know, who’s been supportive throughout, was never really 100% about me taking on this

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
role or even the previous role, just because of, you know, the fact that obviously I’ve got, you know, I’ve got other things that I could be doing,

Andy & Chris:
You’re

Jason Wong:
but

Andy & Chris:
in the firing line.

Jason Wong:
yeah,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
yeah. But then, you know, if, for me, it’s all about whether I can make changes.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
to improve things. I think if I didn’t,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
I’m not in it to sit here in the position and say, oh, this is great to be there.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
The day that I walk away is the day that when I just think there’s no more I can do, there’s no more I can change. I think that’s probably the issue. So I think the

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
people who’ve got to, in terms of you were saying about people not necessarily clinicians who are in the business, yeah, we do have a role for an advocate we deal with the industry. And in fact, we’re the only organization that has sort of that sort of helicopter view of everything. You know, in

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
terms of both dealing with that, you know, there’s other aspects in the Dental Schools Council, on the other hand. The NHS has this mega structure that we are a part of. So we’re part of the medical directorate of NHS England. So reporting to Steve Parris. Also the role has a part to play with the department, even though we’re hosted by Inertious England we actually have a role to play with the Department of Health and Social Care. So you know, where Minister,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
you know, come up with a policy with input into that and the discussions that we have. So over the last, even since being in post for, I think it’s about six weeks now, We’re working on certain aspects regarding amalgam, about legislation for, in terms of clinical negligence, legislation for professional. registration and things like that. So all those things are going on, which is not what people think that the CDO is actually doing. You know, we, you

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
know, we during the pandemic, there’s lots about going back to, you know, the infection prevention control, how things were operating in dental practices, and how the what the NHS wants for the primary care was actually, you know, sort of being applied across the. So we’re one part

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
of that great big system and it is sometimes misunderstood. We have a

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
section that deals with system or contract reform. We have someone within the team that’s leading to help that, but actually it isn’t massively sort of core business in terms of what we have to do, because it’s so much in terms of wide ranging. We get pulled into things like water fluoridation. Soon there’ll be,

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
things suddenly sort of occur out of blue. At the moment there’s a rise in syphilis cases. in the population as a whole which have oral manifestations in the mouth. So that’s something that we’re leading into as to whether we need to re-communicate and things like that. So this is just you know in the last few weeks and you know wanting people wanting our advice on policies they’re going to go through and giving advice back on that. That is actually what I spend most of my time sort of dealing with, even though as I said, understanding that contract reform is a big part for the profession,

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
but also there’s more to it. And we’ve been doing quite a bit of work as well on sort of culture and a safety culture and just culture. and a blame culture and again it’s an area I think we’ve got wrong and it’s interesting isn’t it because people go on about the NHS etc but actually that applies to NHSN private and there’s a big part of

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah

Jason Wong:
dentistry that is private currently

Andy & Chris:
Cough.

Jason Wong:
and I know that the private dentists are saying well the CDO don’t represent them well actually officially the CDO does you know because of its position DHSC have a role to play in both whereas we reach a point where the

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
people we normally work with their remit stops and they genuinely stop. They don’t even stray into that because that’s not us and then we have to then take that on with people that are dealing with private dentistry and you know in terms of just culture and all that kind of thing, that applies equally possibly more actually in private dentistry and professional regulation as well. The ones takes

Andy & Chris:
It’s a massive umbrella

Jason Wong:
action.

Andy & Chris:
isn’t it

Jason Wong:
It

Andy & Chris:
really

Jason Wong:
is.

Andy & Chris:
as opposed to you know everyone sort of thinks it’s about the contract.

Jason Wong:
Hahaha

Andy & Chris:
But it’s not you know that seems and I don’t know it’s probably not the right thing to say but it’s a small part of the actual whole role. Well I’m just thinking as you’re talking Jason I’m seeing you as being the champion of patient care you’re

Jason Wong:
Uh huh.

Andy & Chris:
the voice for the profession. You’re an advisor to government. but not a civil servant. You were saying that the CDO sits with Professor Steve Parris. So

Jason Wong:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
does the agenda come down onto you from central government, or does it come from the profession up through you, or is it a bit of both?

Jason Wong:
I think it’s a bit of both. And in terms of professional accountability, obviously to the medical director. Steve Powis as you say, but actually he tends to be, you know, sort of not setting the agenda for dentistry. That tends to come from either the NHF chief executive and indeed the government and ministers that tends to come along. In terms of what we take on, quite a lot of it is from the ground up as well. I took in the patient safety bits, the denture loss which is gonna be released this week, were things that I brought into the office. We’ve been kind of pushed into, so at the moment, we’re contemplating a policy document on dental tourism in terms of what people have done. It might not just be dental

Andy & Chris:
Okay.

Jason Wong:
tourism in the end, but there’s pressures coming from all parts of the system. And again, you know, the central policy inside NHS, England may decide that it’s not something they want to get involved in, but I think that almost certainly it will end up on our work plan where we’re going to start to give advice as to where the responsibility lies because you see a lot of that problems coming up more and more within general practice right now.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
There’s two aspects. There’s

Andy & Chris:
Where?

Jason Wong:
one which is to say what responsibility does the NHS have? So in other words, someone comes back with a mouthful of implants. and it runs into trouble. Does the NHS have a role in restoring that or does the NHS have a role in restoring health? Probably is restoring health.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
But then on the other hand, it probably won’t be limited to that because… private practice coming into the NHS will have a part to play. But the second thing

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
is actually in terms of the culture, this is what I mean, they could come back to a private practice in this country and of course you’ll see this if you monitor social media, someone goes, oh this has come back from such a place and everyone says you touch it, you own it. I mean have you seen that? You touch it, you own it. Yes,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
I understand there’s risks and we need to somehow mitigate that risk but… Don’t forget there’s a patient at the end of the door. You may blame

Andy & Chris:
Yeah

Jason Wong:
them for having gone abroad, but where does a healthcare profession take this very first line, you touch it, you own it? In other words, run from this, because if everyone ran from it. what does the patient do?

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
And that is a major issue, I think, for our profession in terms of we’ve become so defensive in what we do that we actually end up, you know, I’ve got associates who I try and talk through, but they are updating notes throughout their lunch hours and after work.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
Even during you were saying earlier about COVID, we were the only profession that seemed to be writing in our notes, oh, this is COVID threat level, whatever, the CDO letter, whatever, PPE. The rest of healthcare has gone on

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
with it, but we thought somehow writing this essay was going to protect us, which it doesn’t, by the way. So you’ve got this mega issue where we’re kind of…

Andy & Chris:
interesting isn’t it? Where does

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
this culture of defensive dentistry come from? Is it being taught in dental schools? Is it GDC? Is it insurers? How have we found ourselves in a situation where people are fearful? Yeah, touch it you own it.

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
So I won’t touch it.

Jason Wong:
I think part of it, I mean, you know, obviously it’s been looked into quite a bit and there was a time, you know, when people were… very sort of scared of the regulator. They probably are still scared of the regulator as it is, so they’re setting the tone. GDC has obviously tried to make steps to try and what they call sort of upstream things to try and treat it. It came from two main causes that we could identify. One was well-meaning, and I’m sure highly skilled general dental practitioners going into dental schools for the final years and supervising the students. and telling them about the fact that they’ll probably get sued several times and will probably end up in front of GDC and that’s highly likely. The figures don’t bear that out but that’s what they’ve been told. The second is then in FD, again that message is then reinforced. And also the Indemnity Company, and I’ve been having conversations with them, have a bit of a responsibility here because they are often brought in to give the lecture on dental negligence and things like that.

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
And especially during the online versions, you try and hook people into your two and a half, three hour lecture by giving them the kind of the story that’s gonna grab their attention. And of course, that,

Andy & Chris:
The mega story,

Jason Wong:
you know, the

Andy & Chris:
yeah.

Jason Wong:
mega story. And of course, you

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
know, and I’ve been trying

Andy & Chris:
the clickbait

Jason Wong:
to,

Andy & Chris:
headline.

Jason Wong:
yeah, so I’ve been trying to talk to them as well. And a few of them have already promised not. not to do that. So that culture sort of sets up. And once it sets up, it’s really quite difficult to remove. I’ve been trying to remove it in several ways since I’ve been in post. One is we got the indemnity companies to all sign up to that statement. I don’t know whether you saw where basically it says, if you’ve got the problem, call us. If we don’t open the case, we’re not going to charge you frequent flyer miles for it. In other words, we should be your first port of call. You could call 20 times to inquire, two times. Because again, social media is telling people, if you make that call, your fees are going to go up next year. So people are left

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
asking the question. And honestly, it takes all my willpower

Andy & Chris:
It’s

Jason Wong:
not

Andy & Chris:
like ringing

Jason Wong:
to get

Andy & Chris:
your

Jason Wong:
involved.

Andy & Chris:
lawyer, isn’t it? Mmm.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, exactly. Because sometimes

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
people, again, some well-meaning, some not, give advice over those kind of forums and you just look at it. and you think, my god, you can’t. But if I spend every moment of my time trying to correct that, I won’t do any work. I’ve just been doing that the whole time.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
So that’s one aspect. And the second thing is to try and communicate out that actually the chances of being up in front of the GDC is actually quite low, chances of the ultimate section are actually really low. The high risk things that you do is not this. The single case, this idea of a single case. going all the way through is actually a myth. There are very, very few single cases that go all the

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
way through. And some of the work that I’ve been able to do as

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
policy is not long after I came in, we agreed that removing the wrong tooth extraction from the never event list, which I think is a good thing. One of the worries that the… the press team had which was, you know, we don’t want to communicate, the dentists don’t care about it. So no, we definitely don’t. We want to make sure that it’s a serious event, but people need to know what to do. Now the interesting thing is, if you actually take out the wrong tooth, it is a serious event, but it’s not career ending, right?

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
Most people actually think it probably is, but it’s not career ending. There is no one who have taken out the wrong tooth that. has then followed up the procedure correctly that have ended up in the end stage of the GDC. But the GDC is aware

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
of a few cases where that happened, but it’s actually the subsequent action to cover up what someone has done that’s ended up with them at

Andy & Chris:
Okay,

Jason Wong:
the late stage.

Andy & Chris:
yeah, it’s the

Jason Wong:
Now,

Andy & Chris:
problem.

Jason Wong:
if they weren’t

Andy & Chris:
So

Jason Wong:
fearful in the first

Andy & Chris:
it wasn’t

Jason Wong:
place,

Andy & Chris:
the initial action,

Jason Wong:
no.

Andy & Chris:
it was a follow-up. Yeah,

Jason Wong:
The

Andy & Chris:
yeah,

Jason Wong:
follow-up

Andy & Chris:
yeah.

Jason Wong:
about trying to cover it up or whatever. But if the individual wasn’t in the first stage actually fearful of the consequences.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, definitely.

Jason Wong:
they wouldn’t actually have done the cover-up. So trying to change that culture is actually to say, we need a better recording system,

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
reporting system, so you have all these sort of conversations so that the profession

Andy & Chris:
Mmm

Jason Wong:
can see. It will

Andy & Chris:
see

Jason Wong:
take

Andy & Chris:
it

Jason Wong:
a bit of time, but I think we’ve made good first steps.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah Jason ever thought of that as the CDO’s part of the CDA. Did you know, you know, you’re mentioning I think it flipped It’s a really powerful part and varied sort of job. Yeah Are you familiar with um black box thinking by Matthew

Jason Wong:
Yep.

Andy & Chris:
Syed? Jason

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
yeah, you’ve so the concept is that you know when the black box comes out of the airplane They share that data

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
across the whole of the aero industry. So everybody learns in real time what happens, so it doesn’t happen again. It would be lovely if there was a culture within dentistry. that allow people to be more open about their failures and their failings without fear of reprisals from insurance companies or the GDC or whatever. Because ultimately, I genuinely believe that the people are out there trying to give good patient care, but sometimes things go wrong. But if we have a culture where people feel they have to hide it because of how they’re gonna be treated, it doesn’t move us all forward. And I love that concept of the air industry where everybody gets to share that information

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
in real time. and everybody just moves forward together but it doesn’t sound like we’re there yet.

Jason Wong:
No, we’re not there yet, but we’re making first steps. So the NHS has brought out a recording

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
system. It’s still probably a bit clunky for dentistry because it doesn’t get very far before they ask you about bed sores and whether

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
the patient died. But we need to, I mean, part of the role is to try and develop that and really change how we approach things. I mean, Black Box Thinking is part of it, the patient

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
safety stuff, the other books. And in fact, the NHS has itself a curriculum on this. As you’ve just seen in

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
the recent case of the Lucy Letme case, you know, when you can have cultures build up and at the moment in dentistry that culture is a really defensive one. And the reason why it’s within

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
the remit, and I’ll make this point is… People talk about system reform. Actually, we need to look about not just contract reform, actually why some people perhaps don’t do as much clinical work as they otherwise would do, why some people finish a bit earlier than they did, and why some people feel that the system doesn’t support them in that. And part of that is the fear culture. A big part of that is if you are coming into work and thinking that somehow something’s gonna get you at some point, it isn’t gonna help you

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm

Jason Wong:
perform at your best. And

Andy & Chris:
No.

Jason Wong:
the agreement and the GDC agrees for this entirely, which is if you, you know, anyone that turns up to work to try and do good and try and treat patients, GDC should be nowhere on their radar at all. It just should

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
not feature. You just go on with work. Yes, it’s still a stressful profession. There’ll be things that you need to address, but that is what we’re going to

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
change. I don’t know. It’s a combination of a whole load of factors that have led us to probably from 2010

Andy & Chris:
Mmm.

Jason Wong:
to get to where we are. But part

Andy & Chris:
But that dripping

Jason Wong:
of,

Andy & Chris:
tap effect

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
means that we’re going to lose people earlier from the profession with that dripping tap effect of that feeling.

Jason Wong:
With that out

Andy & Chris:
We

Jason Wong:
of the

Andy & Chris:
might

Jason Wong:
way.

Andy & Chris:
get another five, seven years of people continuing to enjoy their clinical dentistry and delivering patient care, but if they feel that there’s this kind of building pressure and I’ve got to get out before the problem happens type of attitude. It’s like a stalactite, isn’t it? It just grows and grows and eventually drops off. Yeah. But if you’re

Jason Wong:
I think,

Andy & Chris:
always thinking that’s how it’s going to be, you’re…

Jason Wong:
yeah, I think regulatory

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
wise, I think the situation has actually changed. There are still going to be cases and there’s still

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
going to be things. I think the things, you know, if you go back 10 years, how things are treated now to 2013, I think things have changed.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
I think, but some of the legislation that underpins, you know, the clinical negligence systems and things that we do are older than the NHS itself. And

Andy & Chris:
Hmm, yeah.

Jason Wong:
I think that somehow it’s quite adversarial. People sometimes talk about the New Zealand system

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
where

Andy & Chris:
definitely.

Jason Wong:
something goes wrong and then suddenly you literally would have a form that you get the patient and you say, actually this has gone wrong. I’ve perforated, this is how much compensation you are allowed

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
to have as a result of this. Hand that over, sign, and it’s done. And something like that should be here, but at the moment we’re not quite there.

Andy & Chris:
It would stop those law firms that shall remain nameless, who basically pursue… Dentist, you know the stories you hear, you know, we’re not we’re not coming after you. We’re just doing we’re just doing some research for oh Actually now we’ve seen your notes. We are coming after you. It’s just that it doesn’t build No great culture. I say it’s nice to hear that whole culture pieces forming part of your voters

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
a CDO We’ve mentioned contract reform a couple of times. I don’t

Jason Wong:
Yes,

Andy & Chris:
you want

Jason Wong:
yeah,

Andy & Chris:
to

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
dwell on that but just Last week, Eddie Crouch, chair of the BDA, was on Radio 4 and he was talking about the situation at the moment and saying how, yes, moving away from UDAs would be a good thing, a general better pay rate for dentists. There was a £400 million underspend on dentistry and dentists are leaving the NHS, they’re not striking. And he was saying there was talk of a dental recovery plan, where is it? Without getting bogged down in the detail of NHS contract reform, office. Do you think small change is harder than big change? We’ve seen some small things and some tinkering with the contract but do you think big change is something that’s easier just to deal with as opposed to just this constant small bits?

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I’m not sure I do. I think that, well, any change seems enormously difficult, if I’m going to be honest, but yeah,

Andy & Chris:
Hahahaha

Jason Wong:
and it seems to take an absolute age. So yeah, I acknowledge that. But no, I don’t think so. And that part of…

Andy & Chris:
So against that backdrop though, if we accept that change is hard, does it make more sense, given it’s hard, small or big, does it make more sense to go for big change than have the same pain and make small changes?

Jason Wong:
Well, I think that the problem with that is that is what they’ve been trying since 2010. So, you

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
know, you had the select committee

Andy & Chris:
That’s

Jason Wong:
report

Andy & Chris:
true, pilots,

Jason Wong:
in

Andy & Chris:
proto pilots, da da, da da. Ha ha

Jason Wong:
2008.

Andy & Chris:
ha.

Jason Wong:
Jimmy Steele then did the excellent report in 2009. The government

Andy & Chris:
Jimmy

Jason Wong:
then

Andy & Chris:
Steele.

Jason Wong:
did announce, the government then did announce, you know, during the next next parliament we will have contract reform, dental contract reform. That was part of the manifesto commitment in 2010. And they did try and do that. I think the issue then was… as you say, pilots turn into prototypes, prototypes turn into whatever, you know, phase one, two, three, and then eventually, you know, you reach the point where they say, oh, it isn’t going to work. There are some fundamental questions I think you’ve got to ask, and one of them is, you know, exactly what that NHS offer should be, you know, what is it that you’re looking for it to deliver? And I think that’s a perfectly reasonable question for the profession and for patients to be asking. And then the other thing is quite often we conflate is it is it is it a funding issue or is it a delivery issue? There probably

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
is an element of both The thing that holds me back from agreeing with your statement about one big change is as I said they tried it but some of the marginal changes that they brought in last year, the first phase of the changes that they brought in, was actually, some of the profession was actually trying to raise this in 2014. And that was the issue.

Andy & Chris:
Hmm. Wow.

Jason Wong:
And that was roundly rejected, not necessarily by government or the NHS, but roundly rejected by… the profession and the representatives of the profession say, no, we’re not going to do that because you can’t, you don’t want any small changes. And if you could imagine that even the changes that are however small they were probably has made a difference of, I don’t know, five, 10% or whatever to people. If that could have been brought in since 2014, it would have made a difference to associates life in particular, I would say. So

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.

Jason Wong:
the hesitancy is agreeing on, yes, everyone agrees that there’s a problem, but not everyone’s agreed as to what the solution to that problem is. And it’s really difficult

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
to say, we’re going to have a big bang. Well, what are you going to big bang it to? There’s a responsibility to make sure

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
that works. the next big bang evolution, I mean it could be worse, couldn’t it? I mean because if you don’t know what it is, it could be worse, it could be better. So and as I said there’s no collective responsibility so I think that we probably have to accept that there is a bigger discussion to be had as to where the NHS sits, you know, how

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
you

Andy & Chris:
I was

Jason Wong:
know,

Andy & Chris:
going to say, I

Jason Wong:
is

Andy & Chris:
think

Jason Wong:
it…

Andy & Chris:
that’s the big one, isn’t it?

Jason Wong:
yeah, that’s

Andy & Chris:
Because

Jason Wong:
the big

Andy & Chris:
until

Jason Wong:
issue, you know.

Andy & Chris:
you can decide what that’s going to be, how do you design a system to do it for it? And I suppose there’s so many

Jason Wong:
But

Andy & Chris:
stakeholders, aren’t there?

Jason Wong:
in the meantime, don’t dismiss everything

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
in terms of changes. I think it’s still worth pursuing that kind of change.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah. Do

Jason Wong:
But

Andy & Chris:
you

Jason Wong:
yes,

Andy & Chris:
want to go

Jason Wong:
I mean.

Andy & Chris:
from hate to be… And it would be nice if it… I was just thinking it would be nice if we could get to a structure where dentists wanted to work in the NHS, you know, it was back in

Jason Wong:
Yes.

Andy & Chris:
June, wasn’t it? Rishi Sunak said that there was going to be like a lock-in for dentists. I don’t like an idea where you get tied into a crap system. I’d much prefer a better system where people want to work in that system as opposed to you’re tied into something because kind of

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
it’s… it could be better or it’s broken.

Jason Wong:
Yeah, I mean, I think the commitment was to consult on it. So there wasn’t a

Andy & Chris:
Yes.

Jason Wong:
definite

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
situation. And the question is really what, you know, what that sort of looks like and how you’re going to implement it. I probably shouldn’t say a great deal more just in case I end up criticizing what will be policy. But

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Wong:
what I can say is that even back in the day when I qualified. you saw that NHS treatment was predominantly provided by the the recently qualified and then those near retirement and there’s a move away sort of in the middle of it. It was

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
interesting, the GDC leadership day, our clinical fellow was asked that question, he was sitting on the panel and he said, well, if they brought in that you had to have a minimum commitment of X to the NHS in year one, year two, year three, to be honest, that might already

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
be happening as it stands anyway. But yeah, I mean, you’re absolutely right, You know you will only solve this issue if you make if you make a system that more people want to work in. It’s not missed by policymakers. They are aware that’s the case. It’s how you make that and what your red lines are. If your red lines are this is the budget,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
this is what you do. And this is the other misconception because I’m getting into giving you my opinion, which I’m happy to give, but actually it’s not strictly speaking my responsibility to deliver that. That is between government and the British Dental

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
Association. So, you know, it is up to them to articulate and eventually negotiate over what should happen. You know, because

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
at the end of the day, you know, I think both must happen, is my view. I think that you need to have a system looking at how you can make improvements that should happen quicker, and then how the big system stuff, change and

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
it’s quite interesting because the NHS is now responsible for the contract reform piece but I’m fully aware that the profession will blame the CDO for any shortcomings in that contract reform and parliamentarians and public will blame government for that reform piece but actually you know I think

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
we all have to get together and try and push that and that’s what I do I mean I said it in my first bulletin so it’s not a hidden thing that the pace needs to

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
increase, and that we would all like to see reform. But as I said, the problem is we don’t have

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
a concerted view of what that looks like.

Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm. You’ve had a whirlwind of a first six weeks as as interim CDO.

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
As far as the permanent role, you’ve been asked before about, you know, would you do it, wouldn’t you do it? But let’s assume that you did because effectively you’re holding that position at the moment. What would the cost be to you if you did take that role in terms of your ability to continue to deliver clinical dentistry, the leadership role in your practice, the impact on your family? You said your wife’s concerns about where you’re going to get slapped left, right and centre by everybody for everything. If you went into that role, what would be the cost for you for that? It’s true. At least you’d

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
still be able to get

Jason Wong:
and

Andy & Chris:
out for dinner

Jason Wong:
I think…

Andy & Chris:
though, because nobody would know who the CDO is.

Jason Wong:
I think yeah that interesting yeah interesting a really good question Yeah, as you say it’s I mean first of all my wife has to be on board and I think divorce is off the table Now if I did do it so at least

Andy & Chris:
Oh, that’s

Jason Wong:
I’ve got

Andy & Chris:
good.

Jason Wong:
the okay

Andy & Chris:
That’s good.

Jason Wong:
to go because at one stage It didn’t look didn’t look like that might be the case. So you’re right I mean the cost the cost is I suppose I mean even cutting down the amount of clinical time in these last six weeks has caused some impact. I suppose the other aspect for me personally, it’s the fact that with the I spend time at the practice or whether I spend time in this role. So yeah, it will take some sacrifices I would think to do it, but it is a huge

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
honour to do the role. There’s no question about that in my mind. So very much, and yeah, being the essential, that’s the main reason as you say that my wife says, what’s the point? will still want to, parts of the profession, I have to say, a lot of goodwill from a lot of people in the last sort of couple of months, but part of the profession will still want to throw it. So that’s a decision to be made. I’ll go back to what I said earlier,

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
which is my one driver is by doing the role, can I try and make changes that I believe that the profession needs

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
and that would benefit

Andy & Chris:
Brilliant.

Jason Wong:
patients. And that at the end of the day As

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
to whether I can continue, you know, I had a conversation, as I said, about, you know, is it all right, you know, I didn’t even know initially whether the NHS would be happy with the four days and I was going to keep a part in practice. And that was when I was told that it’s neither, it’s not a hindrance and, you know, everything is declared, that’s

Andy & Chris:
Hmm.

Jason Wong:
absolutely fine. Neither, you were saying that it might be an advantage and, you know, neither is it necessarily an advantage.

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
because the work stream is massive, is whether actually, is it sustainable to try and keep that?

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
Because if you’d ask me

Andy & Chris:
Mm.

Jason Wong:
as a 27-year-old who’s taking on the partnership, once I’ve reached over 50, whether I would be working Saturday mornings. I’m pretty sure I’d have said no.

Andy & Chris:
Ha!

Jason Wong:
I probably thought I’d be retired by now. But at the time,

Andy & Chris:
hahahaha

Jason Wong:
you know, and did I think that working 65, 70 hours a week would be the norm once I get to this age? And I probably would have laughed you out of the room. But as it happens,

Andy & Chris:
But you’ve got a

Jason Wong:
that’s

Andy & Chris:
lot of

Jason Wong:
the reality.

Andy & Chris:
energy, Jason, haven’t you? You’ve got, but you’ve got a lot of energy. And I think something that’s also matched with your energy is you are incredibly optimistic. You know, your demeanor. Ridiculously positive, isn’t it? Ridiculously

Jason Wong:
Hahaha

Andy & Chris:
positive. But your optimism, I think for the position you’ve got in dentistry, I think that is critical because, you know, when you got appointed, the

Jason Wong:
Thank

Andy & Chris:
overwhelming.

Jason Wong:
you.

Andy & Chris:
view from what I saw was people were really supportive of you moving into that position. And I think people do want that optimism and somebody who’s going to push for it to get better. And I think you genuinely believe that. And realism. I think that’s what they want. They want a bit of realism that says,

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
yeah,

Jason Wong:
yeah,

Andy & Chris:
okay.

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
Just finally, we always ask our guests two questions at the end, but before we get to that, what makes you happy?

Jason Wong:
I don’t know, I’m spending time with my family I suppose. I’m also one for sort of ticking things off a list, deleting things off a list. So I have a to-do list and I get my real achievements, you know, that is done

Andy & Chris:
I want it zero.

Jason Wong:
and on to the next thing, you know, that is done. And be it in practice when I have to write patient letters and if my list is clear, I go home. happy.

Andy & Chris:
Are you old school? Is that a paper with a written list and you put a

Jason Wong:
No,

Andy & Chris:
line through

Jason Wong:
it’s

Andy & Chris:
them or

Jason Wong:
digital

Andy & Chris:
put a tick

Jason Wong:
I’m

Andy & Chris:
next

Jason Wong:
afraid.

Andy & Chris:
to them? Or is it tasks on outlook or something?

Jason Wong:
No, not to us out look the practice ones on the word document this the CDO is on a notepad that is that is in the cloud. So I have it on my

Andy & Chris:
Right.

Jason Wong:
iPad

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
phone and laptop

Andy & Chris:
I think it’s still, because I agree, I love ticking things off a list, but

Jason Wong:
Yeah

Andy & Chris:
I don’t, somehow, when it’s on a bit of paper and you can literally write a line, put a line through it, that does seem more satisfying. It is, I’m old school.

Jason Wong:
Oh

Andy & Chris:
Yeah,

Jason Wong:
good, most people

Andy & Chris:
you’ve

Jason Wong:
think

Andy & Chris:
still

Jason Wong:
I’m

Andy & Chris:
achieved

Jason Wong:
weird when

Andy & Chris:
the task.

Jason Wong:
I say that, so I’m really pleased

Andy & Chris:
Yeah.

Jason Wong:
you say that because when I say that they say, What are you

Andy & Chris:
No, no, I’m

Jason Wong:
talking

Andy & Chris:
the same.

Jason Wong:
about? No, no, good, good.

Andy & Chris:
No,

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
no, I

Jason Wong:
yes.

Andy & Chris:
get it, I get it. Similar spirits, I think is the answer. So our last two questions, Jason.

Jason Wong:
Right.

Andy & Chris:
The first question we have for you is, if you could be a fly on the wall in a situation and you could be there with somebody watching a scenario play out, where would you like to be given the opportunity?

Jason Wong:
That’s tricky. I actually, so one of my mentors clinically was Mike Wise. I don’t know whether you came across Mike Wise,

Andy & Chris:
Oh yes,

Jason Wong:
around many years ago.

Andy & Chris:
yeah.

Jason Wong:
And Mike

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Wong:
taught me probably at the total end of his career. I have never met a clinician of his caliber and standard and I have to say that probably would be watching him work. at his prime when he was doing those kind of cases. I just think he… and I’ve met lots of people and you know and there are… good people with a skill set, but he always struck me as being someone that is sort of light years ahead. I mean, he never seemed, he just seemed to have the right systems in place and everything, so if I could observe him doing that when he was running his practice and doing that, that would be quite a good thing for me to see.

Andy & Chris:
Brilliant, brilliant. And the follow-up is if you could meet somebody, you could sit down and have a cup of coffee, glass of wine. Living or dead. Yeah, who

Jason Wong:
living.

Andy & Chris:
would you go for?

Jason Wong:
Oh, that’s so difficult. I really haven’t, I should have given this some thought perhaps before, but I failed to read the note that you

Andy & Chris:
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Jason Wong:
were going to ask me this. So, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it’s a tricky one. I suppose, I mean, I would go with someone like Barack Obama, I think. Someone who broke

Andy & Chris:
Hmm

Jason Wong:
a glass ceiling and that, have a sit down with someone like that and just sort of, you know. shoot the breeze over certain aspects of the world I think would be it. I think, but as you can imagine I haven’t given this much thought so you’d probably give me another year I’ll come back to you with a different answer. But right now, off the top of my head I think that

Andy & Chris:
It’s

Jason Wong:
would

Andy & Chris:
Barak.

Jason Wong:
be the answer. Yeah it would be.

Andy & Chris:
and I think he would be a fascinating person to talk to.

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
I’ve

Jason Wong:
I

Andy & Chris:
read

Jason Wong:
just

Andy & Chris:
the

Jason Wong:
think,

Andy & Chris:
first, I think

Jason Wong:
I just

Andy & Chris:
his

Jason Wong:
think,

Andy & Chris:
book’s

Jason Wong:
yeah.

Andy & Chris:
coming out in two parts, I read the first part, incredible guy, incredible

Jason Wong:
Yeah,

Andy & Chris:
guy.

Jason Wong:
yeah, yeah. So I’d be really interested to get inside his head and see what’s driven him.

Andy & Chris:
Yeah, brilliant. Jason, your time has been very much appreciated. It’s been a wonderful conversation. I think just that explanation of your new role and where that sits, but just hear about your life and your journey and how all these different bits sort of fall into the melting pot of your life. He’s managed to make the CDO

Jason Wong:
Thank

Andy & Chris:
role

Jason Wong:
you.

Andy & Chris:
sound quite interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Wong:
Well, that’s a heck

Andy & Chris:
So many

Jason Wong:
of an achievement.

Andy & Chris:
diverse elements to it. Yeah, there you go. Look at that.

Jason Wong:
That’s a heck of an achievement. Because

Andy & Chris:
Wide

Jason Wong:
that…

Andy & Chris:
and varied, I think,

Jason Wong:
Yeah.

Andy & Chris:
is the answer.

Jason Wong:
Thank you. Thanks for the invite. Seriously. It’s

Andy & Chris:
No,

Jason Wong:
been

Andy & Chris:
no, not

Jason Wong:
fun.

Andy & Chris:
at all, not at all. Yeah, no, like I said, I really appreciate your time and keep well, Jason, I’ll see you soon. Thank you,

Jason Wong:
Alright,

Andy & Chris:
Jason, brilliant, brilliant.

Jason Wong:
okay, take care, cheers,

Andy & Chris:
Cheers.

Jason Wong:
bye.

Andy & Chris:
Excellent. Absolutely fabulous.