Transcript – Dentology Podcast with guest Koray Feran
Episode release date – Monday 30 January 2023
00:00:00:13 – 00:00:20:08
Andy Acton
Welcome to another episode of the Dentology Podcast where we discuss the business of dentistry. In this podcast series, we’ll be discussing all the non-clinical aspects of dentistry, some goodwill, values, finance, marketing, how to buy and sell a dental practice mindset through to where you can invest your money in team management issues. My name is Andy Acton and I’m joined by my co-host Chris Strevens.
00:00:20:09 – 00:00:21:12
Andy Acton
Let’s jump straight into it.
00:00:21:20 – 00:00:22:14
Chris Strevens
Well, that was great.
00:00:23:04 – 00:00:30:18
Andy Acton
Really enjoyable as ever. I mean, it never ceases to amaze me the the depth and the wisdom of the people we talk to.
00:00:30:24 – 00:00:50:07
Chris Strevens
Yeah. And I think what was brilliant with Koray was that as you as you said in the podcast, there’s there’s the face that people see as the educator. And then that’s a conversation when you when you listen to it, which really didn’t mention it whatsoever. It was about him. Yeah. And I think that’s what’s fascinating.
00:00:50:15 – 00:01:09:16
Andy Acton
I love the bit about him being very honest about his entry into ownership, how that worked for him, the challenges he had, but also those tips he gave to younger people that are coming into the profession that perhaps have business aspirations. I think when they listen to that episode, they should have a pen and paper to hand because there were lots of nuggets in there that they can take.
00:01:09:16 – 00:01:15:00
Andy Acton
And they take it from somebody who’s who’s, you know. Walk the walk and talk the talk. And he’s got the skulls. He’s done it.
00:01:15:05 – 00:01:35:01
Chris Strevens
And and interesting enough, it’s in the most perceived, prestigious, expensive area to do it. So, you know, it’s the costs of of delivery and to get to that point, you’ve got to, you know, have a pretty big no shoulders. Yeah, we had to do it.
00:01:35:03 – 00:01:36:20
Andy Acton
One of the two rock stars of dentistry is.
00:01:36:21 – 00:01:37:23
Chris Strevens
Many of them now.
00:01:38:11 – 00:01:39:15
Andy Acton
So here we are again.
00:01:39:15 – 00:01:43:08
Chris Strevens
Another episode, another one. And since I’ve put in the cancelation.
00:01:44:00 – 00:02:04:20
Andy Acton
And today we are so pleased, a good friend of ours today we have a dentist starting his career. I can guys in 1985, the principal of LC IDI, which is the London Center for Implants and Esthetic Dentistry in London, an international lecturer, family man, love of steak and musician, Dr. Wife around. Good afternoon.
00:02:04:20 – 00:02:05:22
Koray Feran
How are you? Good.
00:02:06:00 – 00:02:10:17
Koray Feran
Good afternoon. It’s lovely to be here, guys. Thank you for the invitation. That’s a long way.
00:02:10:24 – 00:02:18:04
Andy Acton
We do. We do. We do. And we’re grateful. You’ve had a busy morning by the sounds of things. You just come out of surgery after 4 hours, you say?
00:02:18:05 – 00:02:27:02
Koray Feran
I’ve literally yes. I’ve literally just flown downstairs and hurtled through the door and put my headphones on, had that momentary panic of, oh, my God, I connected.
00:02:27:10 – 00:02:38:00
Andy Acton
Well, we’ll we’ll go easy on, you know, you’re you need your lungs but also you especially subject today’s you so you know the answers. So it’s not going to be physically taxing.
00:02:38:00 – 00:02:39:06
Koray Feran
Well, I think I know the answers.
00:02:39:17 – 00:02:40:17
Koray Feran
From some.
00:02:40:17 – 00:02:42:16
Koray Feran
Of them. Some of them are a bit nebulous still.
00:02:43:13 – 00:02:57:15
Andy Acton
Before we dig into your extensive dental career, I think we need some context. So what do we need to know about the young coach that shaped you into the man you are today? Well, the things that were formative in your young life, the.
00:02:57:15 – 00:02:58:00
Koray Feran
Less, the.
00:02:58:00 – 00:02:58:12
Koray Feran
Better.
00:02:58:16 – 00:03:26:23
Koray Feran
And I don’t know. I mean, I grew up in a sort of a working middle class family. I’m only child. I was born in Turkey. I came over here when I was about three and spent the first formative years of my life in North London, in wood, green, in Haringey. You know, Turkish community was and gradually sort of moved a couple of times with my parents, but I had quite a sheltered upbringing.
00:03:26:23 – 00:03:34:13
Koray Feran
I wasn’t I wasn’t a party animal or anything. I was I was sort of a did you know was I was a was a good boy really came.
00:03:34:13 – 00:03:35:19
Andy Acton
Later so that thinking.
00:03:35:21 – 00:03:36:13
Koray Feran
That came to that came.
00:03:36:14 – 00:03:36:21
Koray Feran
Later.
00:03:38:08 – 00:03:54:03
Koray Feran
But but I think it was it was one of those things where it was an unspoken thing that you were going to go to university. You were going to be a professional. I mean, no, but I never even entertained the thought of being a rock star, though there are photographs of me with a guitar when I was about Will.
00:03:54:03 – 00:03:54:19
Andy Acton
Come on tonight.
00:03:54:19 – 00:03:57:11
Koray Feran
Good time. Did you have a long head for it?
00:03:57:23 – 00:04:17:18
Koray Feran
I didn’t know. I’ve never had long hair. Just too much. Too much. Like hard work. No, that’s. I mean, time in the day, so I don’t know how I didn’t know how I how I got into what I got into. It was just it just it just happened. I don’t think I made any specific, conscious choices other than kind of like, it sounds like a good idea.
00:04:17:18 – 00:04:33:08
Koray Feran
Let’s do that. I don’t know. Well, I didn’t really have a plan when I was young because I didn’t know what I didn’t know as as as a lot of people knew. Going through school, you don’t actually know what life is about and you don’t actually know what’s good for you. And sometimes it takes people a while to to learn.
00:04:33:23 – 00:04:36:03
Chris Strevens
Any dentists in the family lots.
00:04:36:12 – 00:04:54:06
Koray Feran
Yeah. I mean, I liked it in Istanbul recently. There were five members of my family in the audience who were all dentists and and as a couple of retirees as well. So yeah, we do have it, but I don’t think I don’t even think that was that, that, that influenced me. I’m not entirely sure what it was. I think I might even have wanted to do medicine, but my grades just weren’t good enough.
00:04:54:06 – 00:04:55:05
Koray Feran
So I settled for.
00:04:55:05 – 00:04:57:15
Koray Feran
Dentistry and.
00:04:57:22 – 00:05:17:23
Koray Feran
A friend of mine reckons he remembers me talking about wanting to do dentistry when I was about 13 or 14 at secondary school. But I don’t remember. I don’t remember, but I kind of fell into it. I thought, you know, it sounds like a good thing. You know, it’s medical and it’s artistic. And your own boss theoretically, and it just sounds like a good, good, good combination.
00:05:17:23 – 00:05:18:24
Koray Feran
So that’s what I went for.
00:05:19:13 – 00:05:43:01
Andy Acton
And that that link between our medicine and independence or freedom or however you want to phrase in, I guess we all would only ever so frequently, but that also doesn’t interest me because obviously the world you’re in now is, is there’s a heavy esthetic element to what you do and what you achieve. But you’re also an avid love of listening to music and playing music and creating music.
00:05:43:11 – 00:05:49:05
Andy Acton
Do those do those two worlds kind of. It is that creativity kind of meet it at some point.
00:05:49:17 – 00:06:08:05
Koray Feran
And I’ve actually thought about this more recently than I ever have in the past. I mean, when I was younger, I used to build models and paint and draw. You know, it was I was a prolific draw. I used to get through like reams and reams of A4 just painting and drawing and and even at university I started getting into doing portraits and things.
00:06:08:20 – 00:06:26:01
Koray Feran
So I’ve got portraits of a few people I know and then it just fell by the wayside simply because I didn’t have time. It takes a long time to draw and paint, and you do it when you’re a child and you’ve got time. But when you get into university and then work it, it’s always by the wayside. And I’ve always played guitar, but not well.
00:06:26:01 – 00:06:46:04
Koray Feran
I’ve never had a guitar lesson in my life until recently, and I’ve just started now with it, with a chapter that lives near me, who teaches both piano and guitar and music recording. And I’ve started sort of learning music theory the way I should have done, which is opening some doors, even after three lessons I’m thinking from I don’t know any of this I should know.
00:06:46:11 – 00:07:09:20
Koray Feran
So I’ve done everything by ear. So I’ve never been good enough to to turn it into provision. But it’s always been there. So all through my life, the, the artistic side has been there and I’ve never I’ve never even thought about having a career in that. Yet my daughter is in it multi-talented in every way she is. So she is cheap, she paints, she draws.
00:07:09:20 – 00:07:30:08
Koray Feran
She’s a digital artist. She is she makes things with her hands. She’s a prop maker now in her course at Guildhall. And my wife also had met my wife, Banu, also, who was very artistic in a sort of a graphic art type of way when she was younger. So there’s something in the family with it. But I’ve never I’ve never pursued it until recently.
00:07:30:08 – 00:07:57:18
Koray Feran
And I realized that I’m missing out. And the guitar thing and the and the music thing and especially as you get older and you realize how much music actually means to you over your lifespan and what what memories it evokes and what the emotional side of music is and he kind of thing, actually, I want, I want to be able to do this not just not just participate and listen, but actually want to, to, to do it, to play it and understand how it works.
00:07:57:18 – 00:08:02:10
Andy Acton
So it’s a very creative household because I see that there’s a 3D digital printer recently entered the house today.
00:08:02:12 – 00:08:03:18
Koray Feran
Oh, yes, yes. My daughter’s.
00:08:04:22 – 00:08:05:09
Koray Feran
On post.
00:08:05:19 – 00:08:10:20
Koray Feran
I posted this morning. She started she started to manufacture her own stormtrooper helmet.
00:08:10:20 – 00:08:13:10
Koray Feran
So I saw that taking commissions.
00:08:13:14 – 00:08:28:19
Koray Feran
She won’t it won’t take long, I think. Yeah. So she’s she’s she’s into that kind of thing. She’s also teaching herself Japanese or she’s she did teachers of Japanese and now she’s got a tutor. So she’s actually quite prolific at Japanese, Japanese as well. So there are there are other things in dentistry.
00:08:29:08 – 00:08:56:18
Andy Acton
That I’m fascinated by because you say you’re self-taught with a guitar. You’ve only recently just decided to get lessons to understand the formality and the structure there. Yeah, this is the same person who spent seven years at guys doing undergraduate studies to how search and posting prosthetics and max facts and in two years, M.S. and Perrier. So you’re understand your commitment to the importance of structured learning in that sense is undoubted.
00:08:56:18 – 00:09:02:19
Andy Acton
Yet you went freestyle with a guitar and after only 70 years now have decided to put in place that structured learning.
00:09:03:02 – 00:09:17:15
Koray Feran
I think I had I had a math teacher at school who sort of random impromptu play alongs. At the end of the day, I think I did a term of that and he sort of taught me how to play Blowing in the Wind a And that’s, and that’s where it started.
00:09:18:02 – 00:09:20:03
Koray Feran
And he, i.
00:09:21:04 – 00:09:42:23
Koray Feran
I because I’ve never thought about it as a career and I’ve never actually had the time to take lessons, or at least I didn’t think I had the time to take lessons or that, or the environment in which I could take lessons. And I never did. My, my, my first proper acoustic guitar I bought when I was 16 with my first salary working at Boots and I still have.
00:09:42:23 – 00:09:45:05
Koray Feran
So the guitar is almost 40 years old now.
00:09:45:05 – 00:09:45:23
Andy Acton
Money well spent.
00:09:46:01 – 00:09:50:24
Koray Feran
30 years and is still serving me well. I’ve just ordered another one.
00:09:52:05 – 00:09:52:18
Andy Acton
This part, you.
00:09:52:18 – 00:09:56:08
Koray Feran
Know she does. Yes, yes, she does. Now she she.
00:09:56:08 – 00:10:12:09
Koray Feran
Does know she does. She I, I deliberated long and hard over it and I’ve just ordered myself an emerald guitar, which is which is a thing of beauty. So it’s I kind of I collect guitar like a collect art. I’m not I’d rather hang a guitar on the wall than artwork.
00:10:13:20 – 00:10:32:23
Chris Strevens
So I was watching that thing on the Sex Pistols. And even though it might surprise you with punk, the some of them could play instruments but they they drafted on some bloke because he looked good and basically they have a clue how to play the guitar and he just learned it. And then basically he then went on to be one of the best guitarists that people know.
00:10:32:23 – 00:10:34:04
Chris Strevens
You know, I can’t remember his name.
00:10:34:13 – 00:10:35:02
Andy Acton
With his looks.
00:10:35:02 – 00:10:38:15
Chris Strevens
Yeah, face it, they said you look good on stage, so we’ll have you.
00:10:39:15 – 00:10:40:02
Koray Feran
Well.
00:10:41:05 – 00:10:57:12
Andy Acton
Go, go. About your time, it goes you also spent seven years there. During that time, you’re going to absorb a ridiculous amount of information. What was your your method and your process to learn? And importantly, how did you retain it?
00:10:57:12 – 00:11:18:15
Koray Feran
I need to go back to A-levels so that I didn’t do very well in my A-levels, mainly because I think I don’t know, I didn’t know how to work, I didn’t know how to learn. It was just like, you know, lecturers dictating me, writing it down. It just stayed there and until exam time. And when I got to guys, they put the fear of God in us.
00:11:18:15 – 00:11:33:12
Koray Feran
So basically, if you failed any exams in the first year you were out, you know, they gave you one chance. And I failed a couple in my first term because we you know, everybody does in their first term. I think they just do that to scare you. But then I thought, I really, really need to to to understand how to do this.
00:11:33:12 – 00:11:54:20
Koray Feran
And thank many thanks to my dad, who basically my parents and I went to foils one afternoon on a Saturday and with the whole list of like recommended reading and alternative reading and we bought everything, I think. I can’t remember how much my dad spent, but it was sort of at that time it was in excess of about two and a half thousand pounds on books.
00:11:54:21 – 00:12:19:06
Koray Feran
I sort of had the I still have them. I still have them. Wow. So, you know, a companion to dental studies and various other books. So what I did is, is whenever we had a lecture is I was a very goody two shoes. I was born as how that university. So I would I would go home and the weekends I would open up all the books on which that subject had been lectured on and put everything together.
00:12:19:06 – 00:12:43:24
Koray Feran
And as I did that, I had the opportunity to instill stuff into my head because I’d not done it twice and I’d done it in my own time and I’d done it without distractions. So when I actually had my notes that had handwritten, handwritten, handwritten, and they’re still there, files and files of them, and yet it had gone through my brain.
00:12:43:24 – 00:13:03:18
Koray Feran
It wasn’t just a case of, you know, lecturers notes to my notes without going through the brains of either it actually had it was something I now understood. And when you understand something, you know, forget it. So the understanding happened at home. And whilst that meant I probably wasn’t a social animal, I wasn’t didn’t really partake in all the social stuff at university that everybody enjoys, at least as much as I should have.
00:13:04:08 – 00:13:20:16
Koray Feran
And that’s probably where the foundation of everything I did comes from and why people sort of tell me I’ve got a flypaper brain and how the how do you remember that? It’s because I learned it properly in the first place and never forgot it. And that creates an even better structure to learn other things on top of it.
00:13:20:16 – 00:13:37:10
Koray Feran
So you just pick stuff up as you go along. I’m the sort of person if I go on Wikipedia and look something up, I’ll follow another link to another page and read that and then follow one link to another page. Another 22 hours has gone by. It’s just. It’s just me. It’s interesting and weird notes. Yeah, I still have them.
00:13:37:10 – 00:13:40:23
Koray Feran
I still have them. And, you know, do you throw them away? I spent.
00:13:40:23 – 00:13:42:10
Chris Strevens
So you think you.
00:13:42:12 – 00:13:51:08
Koray Feran
Spent so many things you’ve spent so many hours doing them. It’s like a labor of love. So I guess, no, I probably won’t throw them away and.
00:13:51:24 – 00:14:03:00
Andy Acton
Were you were you unusual in your approach back then? And do you think the young dentists who were working their way through the system to to graduate soon would adopt a similar approach or.
00:14:03:11 – 00:14:22:14
Koray Feran
No, I think I think it was a bit peculiar. I think it was a bit peculiar, really unique. But but it’s it did it for me. Am it I don’t like being the front of a class and somebody saying, right, why is it like that? And looking stupid. So not to look stupid. I became instead a bit of a know it all.
00:14:22:17 – 00:14:25:22
Koray Feran
Eric hates that guys used to call me the mouth and.
00:14:26:05 – 00:14:26:18
Koray Feran
It wasn’t.
00:14:27:02 – 00:14:28:11
Koray Feran
So when he was lecturing.
00:14:29:04 – 00:14:29:10
Koray Feran
Like.
00:14:29:10 – 00:14:31:02
Koray Feran
Oh, I know, I know it’s not you.
00:14:31:02 – 00:14:34:03
Koray Feran
Anyone else.
00:14:34:03 – 00:14:53:10
Koray Feran
So it was, it was. It’s nice to learn. I actually, I actually like the process of picking up new information and understanding something, especially if it’s out my outside my field as well, not necessarily just in dentistry, but just being able to think, okay, what is this actually about? And it’s just I’m naturally inquisitive.
00:14:53:10 – 00:15:18:15
Andy Acton
I’ll be really interesting for people who either are doing postgraduate studies or have trouble with with learning new information because everybody learns in different ways. Yeah. Did you learn as you learn as whatever it might be, you know? And I guess it’s never been easier to receive information. You know, I’m a big fan of audiobooks and podcasts help me to In the car a fabulous and I find I can retain that information needy as well as actually reading a physical book.
00:15:18:23 – 00:15:26:11
Andy Acton
It’s taken a while to get into that as no as a way of learning and I can retain that information. In the early days it just washed over me like it was back then.
00:15:26:19 – 00:15:45:13
Chris Strevens
It’s always remember when I used to do that and dram, you know, you, you could read the script and the answer is you’d never get it. But if you actually read it out loud, then that was stick second hand rather than the just reading of it. And I think that, you know, I learned a lot. It’s, you know, you learn the ways that appeal to you that actually.
00:15:46:10 – 00:15:46:19
Andy Acton
Goes.
00:15:46:20 – 00:15:48:02
Chris Strevens
To trying to learn about something.
00:15:48:02 – 00:16:15:00
Andy Acton
Else, which is why I think lots of of standard education only is good for the people that fall within, you know, the average range if you fall slightly outside one way or the other, challenging content that that was interesting. So so tell us your dentistry you’ve been in private practice since 1998 or 45 is 98. But prior to that you did work on the NHS and will come to this at the end of what in terms of the future, the profession.
00:16:15:00 – 00:16:18:20
Andy Acton
But what was it like working back on the NHS in the in the nineties?
00:16:19:08 – 00:16:43:20
Koray Feran
And I didn’t know any better. I mean I was on the NHS from about 1990 to about 95, 95, 96, and so I actually enjoyed it actually. I did actually enjoy it because the level of dentistry we were expected to do at that time was not as high as it is now. And I mean, the patient care was more important.
00:16:43:20 – 00:17:06:23
Koray Feran
So whether we were doing amalgams and no one’s actually sitting there looking at your, you know, tertiary fish carving necessarily, but or, you know, how good the esthetics are. And but I think we we sometimes forget how much knowledge we have now and what protocols we have now in dentistry that we didn’t even think about then. So I did learn how to give really good local anesthetics.
00:17:06:23 – 00:17:30:19
Koray Feran
I did learn how to work really fast. I did learn how to think on my feet. I did learn stamina. I learned to get on with patients. I learned to get on with staff. I learned to and very, very, very slowly. I learned about the business of dentistry, though until you actually own your practice, you don’t know anything.
00:17:30:19 – 00:17:31:14
Chris Strevens
We can all nodded in.
00:17:31:14 – 00:17:45:11
Andy Acton
Agreement to that. We, as you know, in previous laws, we both work for banks and we spent many years advising businesses on what to do. And then when you buy a business and you realize you on your hands and knees trying to get a computer to work, that’s the heart. That’s the heart. And the business.
00:17:45:11 – 00:17:50:23
Chris Strevens
Is that military thing is now a military plan is until you survive first contact with the enemy.
00:17:51:06 – 00:17:51:11
Koray Feran
And.
00:17:51:20 – 00:17:52:14
Chris Strevens
Plan has got.
00:17:53:04 – 00:17:54:00
Koray Feran
That through or.
00:17:54:00 – 00:17:58:02
Koray Feran
Is it? Mike Tyson used to say everything. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
00:17:58:02 – 00:18:02:08
Koray Feran
You? Yeah, yeah.
00:18:02:08 – 00:18:21:15
Andy Acton
So you you were then in partnership back in 2010, you entered into a partnership. You’ve always struck me as somebody who’s got a very clear view of what’s important to you, what you want to do, and what excellence looks like. I’m not putting words in your mouth, but how did that how did that set in terms of the partnership?
00:18:21:15 – 00:18:28:13
Andy Acton
Because you are very clear about what you want. The partnership. Great. But it can also make it challenging. How did that work for you.
00:18:28:20 – 00:18:41:08
Koray Feran
And not well. Not badly, but not well. As you say, I did have a you know, if you like somebody, they have a clear vision. If you don’t like them, their opinionated.
00:18:41:24 – 00:18:44:08
Koray Feran
And they but.
00:18:45:11 – 00:19:05:01
Koray Feran
I think I learned a lot from the partnerships. The first thing was you have to have like minded people around you. If you don’t have like minded people around you is just going to go nowhere. And you need somebody who shares the same ethos but not necessarily the same way of doing something, but just the same the desire to have the same outcome.
00:19:05:07 – 00:19:05:13
Andy Acton
Yeah.
00:19:05:22 – 00:19:29:19
Koray Feran
So there are many ways to skin a cat, but you need to have that mentality where you have a target. What is your objective in this? I’m I found it very difficult being in partnership because, you know, if you want to do something, you have to clear it with two or three or four other people first. It just doesn’t work.
00:19:29:19 – 00:19:47:01
Koray Feran
Things just don’t get done. Either somebody doesn’t want to spend money or somebody is think is a good idea or somebody thinks it’s too much or somebody thinks it’s not enough or whatever. And I found that very frustrating, which is finally when this building came up, I thought, I’m doing this on my own and I may fail and fall flat on my face.
00:19:47:01 – 00:20:08:17
Koray Feran
And I very nearly did on several occasions, but at least it’s my responsibility. And I don’t have to be beholden to somebody else to to make the decisions that I feel are important. But of course, everybody’s opinion of what’s important is with respect different. So I can’t expect everyone to think like me, but luckily, there have been a fair few that do.
00:20:09:12 – 00:20:28:14
Andy Acton
Mm hmm. And I think when when situations like that come up, I think it’s quite often when people kind of lose jobs or have a major change that quite often there’s a push and a pull. So I think what you just got there was quite a lot of push, you know, frustration being with partners, things not happening quickly enough, perhaps no alignment in terms of what you achieve.
00:20:28:14 – 00:20:33:04
Andy Acton
What was the pull? What was the attraction of of being so principally running your own business?
00:20:33:24 – 00:20:52:06
Koray Feran
I’m I’m the sort of person that if I go to a conference and I look at how somebody does something, I think what I want to be able to do that I understand how he does it. I’m going to go and think about it and read about it and practice it and do it. And I’m going to need, you know, 15 grands worth of equipment to do it.
00:20:52:06 – 00:21:08:05
Koray Feran
You know, I need to be surgical kit. I need this. I need that. And I invested in it because I wanted to do it. Now, why did I want to do that? I can’t tell you. It’s just it’s just in my nature that I want to do something to the best of my ability, or at least, you know, the best of my abilities.
00:21:08:05 – 00:21:26:16
Koray Feran
I mean, it has to be perfect, but it means it has to be to the best of my ability. I don’t I don’t cut corners and I feel bad if I thought if it isn’t perfect. So I might come back again and try it until it is. So the objective isn’t perfection is just not want. Not feeling like you haven’t done something perfectly, if you see what I mean.
00:21:26:16 – 00:22:03:12
Koray Feran
There’s a slightly different approach. What I actually found most frustrating was people can be disingenuous when they don’t want to have an adult conversation rather than saying, Right, this is how I feel and this is what I want. It’s like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then undermining you and what you stand for every opportunity that I found the hardest thing to deal with and being a Leo, I didn’t want to sort of, you know, kowtow and say, Well, this is just how people are.
00:22:03:12 – 00:22:28:14
Koray Feran
I wanted an environment where I could actually say, All right, it’s not working for you. Then go. But I don’t. I didn’t want to be undermined in my in my own environment so that I think that the objective of earning a practice was to be in control, not in a tyrannical sense, but having the options, but knowing that I have the options to to take it as I feel fit rather than being beholden to somebody else.
00:22:29:06 – 00:22:41:13
Andy Acton
And as you came out of that partnership, you said kind of it took a while to get a grasp on the business side of things. Did you come out of the partnership a better, more rounded business person, or were you still quite early days on that?
00:22:42:12 – 00:22:50:08
Koray Feran
I probably have to ask Chris that because Chris was the first person ever looked at me and said, Yeah, you’ve got no collateral. You’ve got my first point. I like your CV, I’ll lend you some money.
00:22:50:14 – 00:22:52:05
Koray Feran
I was at Bank of Ireland.
00:22:53:13 – 00:23:07:09
Chris Strevens
I, I do remember we sat in a room where we did something about I’m pretty sure I said I, I can’t believe with this CV that you’re not going to be successful. And I think that was it. We got the loan. I got the loan approved.
00:23:07:17 – 00:23:24:13
Koray Feran
You did bank of and you allowed me to buy into my very first practices upon this, which, which, which I’m great, very grateful because it did allow me to get on on a on a ladder which which is hard to do, which is to. So I’m very appreciative of the fact that you took a punt on someone you knew nothing about.
00:23:26:00 – 00:23:30:15
Chris Strevens
So see, see, that’s good to see. Fashion banking, the way you see, the way.
00:23:30:15 – 00:23:33:02
Koray Feran
You knew the manager. And then you then you see this evening.
00:23:33:03 – 00:23:34:17
Chris Strevens
You go, Yeah, this is going to be fun.
00:23:34:19 – 00:23:54:01
Andy Acton
But it worked as well that gut instinct. And, and the thing is, whilst you lend money for people to buy a business, you actually invest in the people. If you’ve ever watched Dragon’s Den, the Dragons, they’re always interested in the people. Their passion, their motivation, the business they’ve got is a reason that’s done in front of them. But the on going will be the people.
00:23:54:01 – 00:23:57:00
Andy Acton
Yes, she makes it work.
00:23:57:00 – 00:24:01:09
Chris Strevens
Why don’t you? You’re never going to be unemployed. You see, that’s the way I was my that was my safety net.
00:24:02:12 – 00:24:03:02
Koray Feran
Yes.
00:24:03:12 – 00:24:04:09
Andy Acton
It tells you now.
00:24:04:10 – 00:24:06:07
Chris Strevens
That was it. This was not that was the.
00:24:06:07 – 00:24:08:06
Koray Feran
1997, 97, 98.
00:24:10:11 – 00:24:11:00
Chris Strevens
And graph.
00:24:11:00 – 00:24:13:18
Koray Feran
Seven. It’s old enough to remember the thing at Tesco there is.
00:24:15:01 – 00:24:24:20
Andy Acton
And then and then catapult ourselves forward. You made reference to where you’re sitting, but you’re now you’re in a a beautiful restorative four surgery practice in London’s West End.
00:24:25:17 – 00:24:26:24
Chris Strevens
Some might even say swanky.
00:24:28:06 – 00:24:32:11
Andy Acton
It may may have been said swanky may have been used in that context.
00:24:32:13 – 00:24:49:05
Koray Feran
It’s it’s it’s it’s a very nice building. It is I was I was very lucky to find it with with with the duration of lease it had on the size and the usability. So there are a lot of there’s a lot of large buildings in the West, and some of them just don’t lend themselves to being a good practice.
00:24:49:05 – 00:24:50:15
Koray Feran
So I’m very lucky to have this.
00:24:50:19 – 00:25:08:23
Andy Acton
But also very distinctive with the word break. It’s a it’s a really iconic building. It is. And you talked about the things that frustrated you in partnership. So now you’re you’re king of your own empire. What’s the ethos, the culture, the approach to it. And you see that you have now, now your business.
00:25:08:23 – 00:25:35:04
Koray Feran
And I still like to think it’s a democracy. And I don’t want to be a tyrant because it doesn’t it doesn’t lend itself to anything. The trick is to surround yourself with the people who understand your ethos and subscribe to it. And I’ve learned through tough experience that you can’t force people to be like that. Some people have their own well, most people, in fact, have their own interests first and then everybody else’s interest second.
00:25:36:09 – 00:26:15:06
Koray Feran
And it takes a certain level of commitment and it takes a certain level of patience to to achieve, you know, to get to a certain level. And it’s taken me 30 years. I’m so I like the team I have around me. I like the fact that I now have a practice where everybody understands why we do what we do, how we do what we do, and the benefit of it, both to the patients, but also for our working lives, where we have less problems with confusion and miscommunication and money and, you know, arguments and things like that.
00:26:15:06 – 00:26:41:20
Koray Feran
We’re very, very clear when we communicate with with our patients and each other as to what the rules are and what the what what’s what, what rules can be broken and what rules are sacrosanct. And and but it’s it’s it’s it’s a little it’s a law of incremental gains. You can’t do this in one hit. It’s it’s every single episode teaches you something that then improves your approach to the next episode.
00:26:41:20 – 00:26:43:04
Koray Feran
So it’s a process, not an.
00:26:43:04 – 00:26:56:02
Chris Strevens
Event to get people on that journey with you. To get that in isn’t otherwise they just become sort of saboteurs. If you’re not careful and hold you back because they’re either polluting your atmosphere. That choice of words is such an important way.
00:26:56:02 – 00:27:22:06
Andy Acton
In a primeval way. We live and work and behave in tribes, and I think tribes subscribe to a certain way of thinking. Doing things become very strict rules. I think if somebody enters a tribe who doesn’t get that ethos and culture, they stand there very quickly about I think the the byproduct of that is if it’s not strong to start with, you get a real mishmash of conflicting people and complete conflicting views.
00:27:22:10 – 00:27:24:23
Andy Acton
And nobody really knows what’s the things that’s important to know.
00:27:25:02 – 00:27:38:10
Chris Strevens
And it’s quite hard to change your team, those in it with, you know, with H.R. Law, you know, you have to go down a whole process to try and move people either in along your journey or out of your job. But it’s, as you say, patience.
00:27:38:19 – 00:27:57:17
Koray Feran
It never actually occurred to me that anyone would be so vociferously against doing things the right way that I had. No, no way of combating it. Then I just sort of sat there in disbelief, like, why wouldn’t you want to do it correctly? Why would you want to cut corners at this level?
00:27:57:24 – 00:28:15:06
Chris Strevens
I mean, I think one of the hardest things is to realize that people don’t work like you. They don’t think like you, don’t you? I wonder, you know, when even when we were really small as a business, you got wonder why do you think you might be working in the bank? You know, you’ve got well, but why that just seems really sensible.
00:28:15:06 – 00:28:21:19
Chris Strevens
But you’re just ignoring it. And then you realize that people are wired differently. You just don’t want to push for sure.
00:28:21:21 – 00:28:45:00
Koray Feran
They are wired differently. And and it can get it can get emotive because you work so hard, you know, you spend so much of your energy trying to get things right that the instant something happens to disrupt it, it’s a huge amount of time and energy that you don’t necessarily have to try and put it right. And it’s stressful.
00:28:45:01 – 00:29:00:21
Koray Feran
I mean, if someone said to me, you know, what, would you do it all again? If you if you knew what you knew now, would you own a business again? And I’m kind of I’m more in the no camp than I am in the yes camp, though I suddenly then go back and say, well, if it was a no and I didn’t know business, you know, I’d have different conflicts.
00:29:02:02 – 00:29:09:14
Chris Strevens
And are you good at sort of dealing with that hassle and stress yourself or, you know, do not get shout in the middle of Cavendish Square or something and.
00:29:10:06 – 00:29:10:20
Koray Feran
I have to.
00:29:11:12 – 00:29:14:01
Chris Strevens
Go for a run every time.
00:29:14:07 – 00:29:14:10
Koray Feran
I.
00:29:14:10 – 00:29:38:23
Koray Feran
Have I have my methods. I mean, some sometimes it has been, you know, distractingly difficult. And Andy, who’s sort of been my agony aunt for the last ten years, knows that very well. I mean, you know, I sort of I explode and I say, Andy coffee Friday morning he said, Yep, 830. And I sit there and I ran for 2 hours and he says he says, Yeah, but there’s a solution.
00:29:39:09 – 00:30:00:09
Koray Feran
And you know, and certainly grateful to Andy for just always being a positive take on things and just calm me down and saying, actually, you know, don’t worry about it. It’s perfectly normal. Go this way instead of that way, and it’ll work. And he’s been right pretty much every time. So I’m very grateful to both of you. And if you if you influence my careers, my career, thank you very much.
00:30:00:10 – 00:30:01:22
Koray Feran
Your efforts can later. Correct?
00:30:02:07 – 00:30:05:16
Koray Feran
It’s not my career.
00:30:05:16 – 00:30:30:06
Koray Feran
And so, yeah, I’m grateful just because because you don’t you have you go home and you rent to your wife. You have some very close friends, but they have they have their own problems. And and, you know, they’ll sympathize, but they can’t solve your problems yourself. But sometimes are, you know, have a punchbag out in the backyard that has seen, you know, little.
00:30:30:09 – 00:30:31:17
Koray Feran
Little peaks of activity.
00:30:33:05 – 00:30:54:17
Andy Acton
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. When Chris asked you about would you do it again? And it was like a yes or no, you said no. You like you say, life’s never really that simple. It’s never as binary as sometimes it would be like to be so stupid that you did it again. What would you change? What would you have done differently that might would have perhaps made you more comfortable, few more enjoyable?
00:30:54:24 – 00:31:12:09
Koray Feran
I would have been a lot more selective in the people I chose to work with. And you in the back of your head, it’s like, Oh, I’m going to, you know, these people are going to come in and I’m going to help them get to a certain level and nurture them and, you know, get the team work in and make everything perfect.
00:31:12:09 – 00:31:33:06
Koray Feran
And so people just aren’t interested. They kind of just come for the right and this is that thing about, you know, the bees, butterflies and leeches thing here you have where, you know, you’ve got the bees who are like, you know, yet Cristiano Ronaldo and who who are there all the time doing their best, getting the results. You know, they get the ethos.
00:31:33:18 – 00:31:51:12
Koray Feran
And, you know, I’ve got Sheraz Khan with me, who’s superb and he’s been like, he’s been with the three years and he’s he’s built his own practice in here. You know, he has his own personality, his own way of doing things, but he understands what the rules of the practice and he works within them and he realizes that that actually benefits him.
00:31:52:02 – 00:32:07:16
Koray Feran
So he’s he’s the B he’s the guy in the practice. I’ve got Gustavo and Fabio also who joined in the last year who are also growing the practice, which is really nice. You know, I want I want my associates to be the people that actually lead the practice in the future. I don’t want to be the person that everyone comes to see.
00:32:07:16 – 00:32:25:05
Koray Feran
I want it to be them. So the bees are important and the leeches are the people that come in and they don’t really want to partake in the ethos. They don’t want to put in the hard work, they just want the benefits. They don’t really respect the staff or the patients. It’s just about the money or whatever it is that they are after.
00:32:25:23 – 00:32:49:10
Koray Feran
And you, you spot them pretty quickly and they don’t last long. The difficult one is the 80% in the middle, which are the butterflies, lovely people and do nice work and you know, lovely to the patients and loved it to the staff. But they really don’t don’t really pull their weight and they just kind of coast through life and not really contributing to the business, but not bad enough that you can fire them.
00:32:49:10 – 00:33:05:05
Koray Feran
And it’s like those are the hardest people, I think, you know, say it’s hard to sack someone. It’s like it is hard to find somebody who is ineffective but pleasant. And that’s the person I found. I found actually the most frustrating. Yeah.
00:33:05:06 – 00:33:06:15
Chris Strevens
And I think that’s the same for any business.
00:33:06:15 – 00:33:28:23
Andy Acton
And I think that there was a study done it, um, it was in the States, it’s a few years ago now and they found out that 55% of employees are people working within a business. Did the absolute bare minimum to not get sacked 55%. So over half the people working in the business would put literally just skimming above the line to not be dismissed for one reason or another.
00:33:29:01 – 00:33:43:18
Andy Acton
And if we kind of take that across all businesses, it’s hard to accept the lots of people who we work with. They’re just going through the motions. And, you know, it’s it’s disappointing in some ways, but then also it means that if you’ve got good systems and processes.
00:33:43:18 – 00:33:57:18
Chris Strevens
And then you have that building culture, these cultures then sort of can supersede that. But your back to them. What you were saying, Koray, is that that takes time and patience. Tough to get people. Yeah, it doesn’t stop it. It doesn’t just happen. They broke.
00:33:57:21 – 00:34:15:02
Koray Feran
Through. So when you do ask those people who are the 55%, what is important to you? They don’t have much to say for themselves. No. You know, argue with me. Come and say no, this is wrong. I’m going to do it this way. What you’re doing is stupid. It works much better this way. I’d rather have that conversation and then.
00:34:16:03 – 00:34:16:22
Koray Feran
Yeah, whatever.
00:34:17:09 – 00:34:47:08
Chris Strevens
You think that we were talking to yesterday, he said he’s got a a team and he said to the guys, we’re getting really busy and we can recruit 5 to 5 more people and you’ll stay in your same hourly rate of like £10 or whatever the number was. And he said, all I can employ five more people and I’ll increase your right to £16, but you’ll have to work a bit harder and all the people decide that they just wanted to have an easy life.
00:34:47:17 – 00:34:55:13
Chris Strevens
They could employ four or five more people because they just wanted to sort of like that. They weren’t bad, they just wanted one.
00:34:55:13 – 00:34:55:23
Koray Feran
Back as.
00:34:56:03 – 00:35:01:09
Chris Strevens
Enjoy their life is a fascinating one really. Rather than earn extra money, they would prefer.
00:35:01:09 – 00:35:23:21
Andy Acton
To. But they also think there’s a there’s a lesson in that. It’s that thing about understanding what motivates and drives each individual person and it becomes complex and time consuming as opposed to just having a particular way that suits everybody. You try and kind of, you know, in a micro way, you make sure you have an environment to to suit the people in the business.
00:35:24:05 – 00:35:40:11
Koray Feran
The infuriating thing is sometimes there isn’t anything that motivates them. That’s that that’s the problem. The problem is that there is no hinterland is this is just the drift. And yet something must be important to you. Yeah. Nothing comes to mind.
00:35:41:13 – 00:36:02:08
Andy Acton
People that are very driven and care about what motivates them, it’s infuriating. I was going to say that’s quite hard work. That’s quite challenging. You’re very clear about what’s important to you because that’s basically the underpinning principles of your practice. So we all we know what’s important to you. So to be working with people who would appear to have nothing that’s important to them, um.
00:36:02:17 – 00:36:03:16
Chris Strevens
Starts at your core.
00:36:04:08 – 00:36:07:20
Andy Acton
And as you say that that’s not the minority either.
00:36:07:20 – 00:36:12:24
Koray Feran
No. Yeah, we know that now.
00:36:12:24 – 00:36:39:14
Andy Acton
We’ve, we’ve talked a lot over the years about, about business, you know, managing people, budgets, marketing, forecasting. And you said in the past you’ve come to realize that skill is nothing without other social skills and business acumen. And now like adding to these into the mix for younger colleagues to consider. So you’ve obviously invested hugely on the clinical side of your practice, ownership, experience and learning.
00:36:39:21 – 00:36:59:16
Andy Acton
How did that was that literally through experience? Or have you put any kind of formal learning in place over the years? And what are you able to pass on to the younger generation in terms of trying to accelerate their their own journey through to your experience?
00:36:59:16 – 00:37:26:22
Koray Feran
It’s I going to give it analogy that sort of came up one evening while we were having a drink with someone and I said, it’s a bit like a video game. If I, if I throw you into the into the, you know, level 264 of a video game from scratch, you’ll get slaughtered in short order. But if you go through all the levels and you kill all the bosses, you’re going to you take your fair amount of clubbing on the way over the head and get knocked out and killed and come back and respawn again.
00:37:27:09 – 00:37:57:14
Koray Feran
It’s a little bit like that. And by the time you’ve finished a video game, you kind of realize that it’s about the experience and all the time you spent doing it that makes you who you are. There is no shortcut. There is no shortcut to experience. And what would I say in terms of practically what do I do tomorrow if I’m three years qualified and want to own my own practice or I want to be an associate, go to practice, and the first and foremost one is find the right people to work with.
00:37:57:15 – 00:38:17:18
Koray Feran
You can start off in a sandwich shop and rule the world. If you start with the right people, it doesn’t matter what you do where you start, doesn’t matter what you’re doing when you start. But if you with the right people and you have the same mindset and the loyalty and the honesty and the hard graft, you will get there, you will get there.
00:38:18:07 – 00:38:39:17
Koray Feran
The problem is you can be a genius, have all the money in the world, and if you’re in the wrong environment, it will be for nothing. That is the biggest. That is the, you know, the right people make you feel good about yourself. They make you feel that it’s worth it all and they’ll be there when you’re feeling down.
00:38:39:17 – 00:38:57:16
Koray Feran
They’ll be there when you’re feeling up. And if you find the right people, if you find the right amount, spend time to do it. And don’t worry about hopping around three or four practices if you need to. And don’t expect it all to be hunky dory in the first place. Ireland learn from it and move on. It is great.
00:38:57:16 – 00:39:08:10
Koray Feran
Great that for me it was. The big mistakes I made were always either being in the wrong place or being with the wrong people and expecting more from them. I should have.
00:39:08:20 – 00:39:10:05
Koray Feran
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm hmm.
00:39:10:19 – 00:39:11:03
Andy Acton
Obviously.
00:39:11:11 – 00:39:11:16
Chris Strevens
Good.
00:39:11:16 – 00:39:20:07
Andy Acton
Listen, it’s really good tips. Really, really good tips. Because increasingly, dentistry is becoming more entrepreneurial. Know there are more and more younger dentist looking.
00:39:20:09 – 00:39:43:12
Koray Feran
Everything else will come. Everything. But I mean, what is an entrepreneur or entrepreneur or somebody who basically spots an opportunity and invest time and money to make it something that will give him a return on his investment, whether it’s emotional or financial or fame and whatever it is that you want. For me, the bottom line was I wanted to be a practice.
00:39:43:14 – 00:40:07:23
Koray Feran
I wanted to be a clinician that was trusted. I wanted people to know that if you go there, they’ll do a good job. They will not cut corners, they will not fleece you, they will not damage you. They will be honest with you. That is a good place to go is really the bottom line. Reputation is everything that for me that’s what was important.
00:40:07:23 – 00:40:29:21
Koray Feran
So so a mistake for me isn’t a mistake. It’s it amplifies something goes wrong. It has a knock on effect, whether it’s patients or whether it’s staff or whether it’s colleagues or whether it’s just your own personal reputation. You can’t can’t sleep, you know, can’t sleep at night feeling. And that is that to me has always been paramount.
00:40:29:21 – 00:40:33:15
Koray Feran
Just that’s something that just not a corner. I would cut you set.
00:40:33:21 – 00:40:44:20
Andy Acton
Um, incredibly high standards and not just the people around you, but upon yourself as well. Did you still have the ability to enjoy your success?
00:40:44:20 – 00:41:14:19
Koray Feran
Yeah, very much so. I mean, I, I like where I am in my profession and I have a lot of very good colleagues also in very good places in their profession and have paid their dues to get there. They haven’t done it overnight. The overnight guys may be successful for a while, but if you don’t have the hinterland and the depth and in time and experience and they will at some point be a rude awakening which you will learn from, you’ll have a boss battle that you can’t win and you’ll have to go back.
00:41:14:23 – 00:41:44:12
Koray Feran
You have to go back a level. We’ve all done it. We’ve all done it. We’ve all made really stupid mistakes. I’ve I’ve made some really stupid mistakes through immaturity, through presumption, through and rarely through laziness, mostly because just misjudgment. But, you know, every single one of those is a lesson and you get to where you are. Now, if people substitute career, you look at something and you see stuff and I don’t see it as like, okay, I didn’t see it 20 years ago.
00:41:44:12 – 00:41:54:05
Koray Feran
Why either? I see it now because I’ve been hit by this stuff now. And the reason the rules are here, for every rule I have, it’s it’s to avoid something that made me feel bad in the past.
00:41:55:03 – 00:41:55:18
Andy Acton
But yeah.
00:41:55:19 – 00:41:57:16
Chris Strevens
Yeah, it is that.
00:41:57:16 – 00:42:02:05
Koray Feran
I mean, so learn from my mistakes and don’t make your own. Especially not on my time.
00:42:02:05 – 00:42:11:05
Andy Acton
It I must say I think the phrase, you know, love, love and you mistakes are that crappy phrase ever. I’d prefer to learn from somebody else’s mistakes.
00:42:11:05 – 00:42:12:18
Koray Feran
Sometimes they have to be your own.
00:42:13:02 – 00:42:29:10
Andy Acton
That that’s where you truly love. Yeah, absolutely. There are certain things it doesn’t actually stick and make sense. So picking or carrying that that sort of conversation on what are the big, big issues that the profession is facing over the coming years? What are the things that are coming down the track?
00:42:29:10 – 00:42:51:24
Koray Feran
They’re like the very beginning. I think we’re being professionalized. I think we’re being turned into a global service industry and eventually the profession will die. I mean, and Wilson has just set up the college of General Dentistry, and his argument is the dental profession doesn’t have a representative body from a clinical point of view that carries any gravitas and policymaking.
00:42:51:24 – 00:43:15:17
Koray Feran
AM And I would encourage everybody who’s listening to, to, to join because that we need our own Royal College. We need somebody to set the clinical standards because we don’t have anybody setting clinical standards. The BDA is effectively a it’s a trade union and it has it’s a it’s a learning, which is great, but it doesn’t really set the clinical parameters.
00:43:15:17 – 00:43:39:18
Koray Feran
It doesn’t say, right, this is how this should be done and this is what the minimum standards should be. The GDC sets that for us. But there is it’s nothing’s written down. It’s not really you know, we have the GDC standards, which is the ethical side of dentistry, but we don’t actually have a clinical set of standards. We don’t have anybody for the media to go to when they want to say, where is this normal?
00:43:39:18 – 00:44:00:01
Koray Feran
What is what is your view on this? So I think we need I think we’re being professionalized. I think we are being turned into an especially with this thing about, you know, how much for an implant or how much of a crown. You know, we will are we’re not salesmen of commodities, we’re professionals. So you’ll see you should be you’ll see what your crown costs you, what you clean.
00:44:00:01 – 00:44:08:23
Koray Feran
It costs you what your electricity bill costs you is absolutely not the patient’s business. You should have a say based on your knowledge and the patients trust in you and your abilities.
00:44:09:09 – 00:44:16:14
Andy Acton
And who you are being driven by. Is that being being driven by the population of patients in dentistry or dentistry market itself?
00:44:16:14 – 00:44:46:16
Koray Feran
Paul No, I think, I think it’s being driven by the fact that that’s how most of the world works from a business point of view. But we, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve instead of us saying, right, we’re professionals and that doesn’t actually apply to us and it only applies to us in the background as we run our practices. But this sort of the patients view of us as people who own, you know, vast amounts of money, we we we have to earn vast amounts of money to be able to provide the service that we provide the investment.
00:44:47:01 – 00:45:08:02
Koray Feran
But that professionalism, you know, I spend most of my weekends writing letters and reports and, you know, it’s no fun. It’s not a fun way to live, but it’s if you don’t do it, then things things go wrong. And and for every case in the GDC at the moment, there is a there is a story where something hasn’t been looked at properly in the professional time, hasn’t been spent.
00:45:08:16 – 00:45:31:23
Koray Feran
I think we are struggling to to maintain the gravitas of the profession at the moment. And I think the older guys can see it. I was out with a colleague yesterday. Is you still energetically practicing is he’s now 70 and plays tennis every day but he said you know, do you feel do you feel that it’s the same as it was?
00:45:31:23 – 00:45:54:16
Koray Feran
And I said, no, I don’t actually. It doesn’t it doesn’t feel the same now. Is it wrong? Should should we be a service industry? Should we be able to, you know, you know, email or do your orthodontic treatment? Yeah, maybe we should. Maybe we should. I don’t know. Maybe that’s what is going to come. But if we lose the profession as it stands, then we lose something very valuable that we won’t be able to get it back again.
00:45:55:20 – 00:46:07:11
Koray Feran
So I think we are being deliberately and sometimes with blindness, you know, some people are just sleepwalking into into being salesmen as opposed to clinicians and professionals.
00:46:07:23 – 00:46:08:10
Chris Strevens
Interesting.
00:46:08:22 – 00:46:09:04
Koray Feran
Hmm.
00:46:09:13 – 00:46:18:01
Andy Acton
That that when I was like you saying that Professor Wilson who started will stick a link in our show notes, but what was the organization called Kroy College.
00:46:18:01 – 00:46:42:17
Koray Feran
Of General Dentistry? So basically it’s replaced the GDP, which used to be part of the Royal College of Surgeons, but is actually our own college now as opposed to being affiliated with the US. And Nance worked very hard on this and conceptually I understand why it’s an important thing because we actually need a a solid clinical representation that we don’t have with any other organization.
00:46:42:17 – 00:46:45:13
Koray Feran
The FTP is no more and this is a replacement.
00:46:46:17 – 00:46:46:23
Koray Feran
Yeah.
00:46:48:00 – 00:46:48:06
Chris Strevens
Yeah.
00:46:48:07 – 00:47:11:12
Andy Acton
My sense that’s yeah I think it’s, it’s a good debate and conversations start now because you know, the profession all together is a very powerful force. Um, I just don’t think it comes together often enough in a way to try and drive the change that is needed over the coming years and some quite fractured.
00:47:11:16 – 00:47:14:10
Chris Strevens
And it’s better to get ahead of the curve than it is to be on the.
00:47:14:22 – 00:47:17:01
Andy Acton
Behind the back end of.
00:47:17:01 – 00:47:47:21
Koray Feran
It. I mean, I don’t know. It is I think it’s I think it’s very tough in views. You know, you go to dentists, dental, tourism on the one hand and this kind of, you know, let’s undercut our colleagues and get the business mentality there is so much work out there for everybody. And I think the if by, you know, slashing your fees and, you know, advertising to the lowest common denominator you’re doing yourself and the profession and the patients a disservice.
00:47:47:21 – 00:47:52:10
Koray Feran
I think you need to keep it a certain level and I feel that levels just dropping over time.
00:47:52:22 – 00:47:53:03
Andy Acton
Hmm.
00:47:53:22 – 00:47:54:03
Koray Feran
Hmm.
00:47:54:18 – 00:48:12:02
Andy Acton
So let’s roll forward a chunk of time and you’ve just hung up your handpiece and you’ve stretched you out and a plectrum happens to fall into it. And yet you’re relaxed and at home in your music studio where you’re creating your music with your guitars around you. Is that your happy place? Is that where you can truly relax?
00:48:12:12 – 00:48:29:22
Koray Feran
Yeah, especially if I’m on some holiday at the same time in my summerhouse, I think that that’s that’s kind of made my friend Michael Sultan came out to the summerhouse this year to Turkey to spend a few days with us. And he just said, you know, just was this sort of morning around breakfast time just playing some guitar?
00:48:30:13 – 00:48:55:02
Koray Feran
And he just said, You live in the dream. He said, this is this is what I dream of when I retire. And, you know, it’s a very valuable thing. And, yes, you know, I’m I’m not good enough to, you know, perform. It’s purely for me. But I enjoy doing it. And it’s it’s something that I can spend hours and hours on and not think about industry at all while I’m doing it.
00:48:55:20 – 00:49:15:17
Koray Feran
So and it’s and it’s really grown in the last 7 to 8 years. And the fact that I, you know, especially during lockdown when I actually had time to practice and I got quite good at playing a few things to the point where, you know, it wasn’t just subjective. People who heard me sort of said, that’s really good.
00:49:15:18 – 00:49:17:01
Koray Feran
I didn’t really do that in Islam.
00:49:17:20 – 00:49:20:10
Andy Acton
So could we expect to see some duets between you and Talk World?
00:49:21:13 – 00:49:26:09
Koray Feran
Well, why why do you coming out to train us on Treos in a couple of weeks time?
00:49:26:22 – 00:49:27:04
Koray Feran
Okay.
00:49:27:12 – 00:49:46:03
Koray Feran
So, yes, we may I mean, you know, Doug is sort of taken over as the lead of the cheaper two tone suits set up during during lockdown. And I just haven’t had a chance to practice them. But I have to say, you know, when they were playing it at the Tube news conference, I felt very jealous. I wasn’t on that stage with them right again.
00:49:46:07 – 00:49:49:08
Koray Feran
Next time I’m going to be I’m going to be ready comes out.
00:49:49:10 – 00:50:31:17
Andy Acton
Yeah. I must admit, I am fascinated by the number of people in dentistry that have a very creative age but also are very interested in the esthetics and the art and the creation of dentistry. You know, there’s yourself, Doug and Joe and it’s two tones crown and then we’re speaking to love and get him. Whereas and who he’s a rapper we’ve also got Millard who’s done he’s he’s you know he sees parodies for years it ages interest me how there are so many creative people in the profession and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that people who are creative are drawn to a profession where there’s a a creative.
00:50:31:23 – 00:50:38:19
Chris Strevens
They can still be elements to it. You can’t sort of be that creative as a GP, can you, really? Well, I’ll tell you what, let me just have a go.
00:50:39:22 – 00:50:42:11
Koray Feran
It doesn’t quite work.
00:50:42:11 – 00:50:45:00
Koray Feran
It’s appendectomy in D minor. Yeah.
00:50:45:24 – 00:50:50:22
Chris Strevens
Tell you what, that’s over your heart out. And I’m going to do it in a different way to that doesn’t quite work.
00:50:51:21 – 00:51:14:11
Koray Feran
I mean it’s, it’s, I think everyone should everyone should have a hobby. Everyone should have something where they can go. It makes them feel happy that that they can they can sort of be distracted from the sort of stuff that’s ricocheting around in your head, especially if you run your own business and you’re working in a high intensity environment and to guitar and also some keyboards.
00:51:14:11 – 00:51:32:17
Koray Feran
And I like making silly sounds on keyboards as well, just to just I don’t play any piano, no piano lessons, not even self-taught, just what sounds good, but it’s just it’s just fun. I mean, it’s it’s my hobby. And as I said it, you know, people buy artwork. I’d rather hang a guitar in the world and maintain.
00:51:33:01 – 00:51:33:18
Chris Strevens
For our brains.
00:51:33:18 – 00:51:37:18
Koray Feran
Then. Yeah, we do. We do is the best. Is the best there is, I think for me. Yeah.
00:51:38:04 – 00:51:46:05
Andy Acton
Brilliant. We, we always wrap up in the same way for consistency. You like to ask our guests the same two questions. So the first one we have.
00:51:46:10 – 00:51:47:06
Chris Strevens
You our guest.
00:51:47:14 – 00:51:56:16
Andy Acton
Is you are the fly on the wall. You can be the flown of all in a situation. So let us know where and when you’d like to be a fly on the wall. Where would that be?
00:51:57:24 – 00:52:03:15
Koray Feran
Well, presuming a fly has ears and can understand the conversation.
00:52:03:15 – 00:52:04:10
Andy Acton
Let’s go with that.
00:52:04:10 – 00:52:15:13
Koray Feran
I think I think the Oval Office would be great, wouldn’t it? It’s good you just get to put a bug in the Oval Office and just listen. Just for a few years and see what. See how it all, see where all the mistakes have made.
00:52:16:06 – 00:52:16:24
Andy Acton
Yeah, I think for.
00:52:17:04 – 00:52:17:19
Chris Strevens
Watergate.
00:52:17:19 – 00:52:18:09
Andy Acton
That I was going.
00:52:18:09 – 00:52:19:14
Koray Feran
To say. Yeah, yeah.
00:52:20:00 – 00:52:29:06
Andy Acton
I think probably for the the the last few weeks of Barrack Obama and then perhaps running through Trump a couple of weeks after he left would probably be a good time to.
00:52:29:20 – 00:52:34:13
Chris Strevens
You know, with that Capitol Hill meeting. Yes, in just a minute.
00:52:35:10 – 00:52:35:18
Andy Acton
Yeah.
00:52:35:19 – 00:52:56:17
Koray Feran
I mean, I don’t know it nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors. There’s a billion conversations that take place that you have no idea, you know, what goes on. But yeah, I thought I think, you know, looking at the way America’s waded through its foreign policy in the last 30 years, it’s like 50 is maybe and I think I think that would be pretty where I’d put the buck.
00:52:57:14 – 00:53:00:07
Koray Feran
It’s just just for entertainment value.
00:53:01:09 – 00:53:09:15
Andy Acton
And if you could meet if you could meet somebody, you would you like to be given the opportunity to sit down and have a a good one steak and a glass of red wine with.
00:53:10:02 – 00:53:28:11
Koray Feran
And I’m before I answer that, I saw this question in my and my friend Gustavo said, okay, what we need here is we need Michelle Roux to be the chef and then we need Stephen Hawking and we need Bill Gates to make Stephen Hawking’s voice recognition go faster.
00:53:28:11 – 00:53:30:10
Koray Feran
So, Gustavo, these three people. Yes.
00:53:31:17 – 00:54:02:08
Koray Feran
I honestly, you know, they say never meet your heroes. So I don’t know. I think the people have probably inspired me emotionally over the years, actually producing like Steven Spielberg, actually. And because I think he’s got this the power of imagination, but he’s a very well grounded and very well connected and very experienced individual in life. And but I also like what he’s done with, you know, he’s basically the background to our childhood Disney, Spielberg and Lucas and that gang.
00:54:03:09 – 00:54:11:20
Koray Feran
So, you know, actually Spielberg and Lucas for an evening, which would be would be pretty would be pretty, pretty good fun, I think, without getting too serious about it.
00:54:12:03 – 00:54:12:12
Andy Acton
Yeah.
00:54:13:08 – 00:54:23:07
Koray Feran
But of course there’s lots of people. I mean, you know, the old classic ones about, you know, world leaders and things, you know, it would be fun and Springsteen would be another one.
00:54:23:14 – 00:54:46:04
Andy Acton
And what’s interesting for me, a lot of what we talked about, we kind of started with the music and the creativity and we kind of bookended it with the same thing. And and you’re you jumped into somebody who is one of the most you know, famously creative people of our generation. So it all fits together, doesn’t it? You also very passionate about the creation of things and how that manifested.
00:54:46:04 – 00:54:47:10
Chris Strevens
So very clever idea.
00:54:48:16 – 00:54:49:18
Andy Acton
You might.
00:54:49:18 – 00:54:49:23
Chris Strevens
Right?
00:54:49:24 – 00:54:51:12
Koray Feran
Yeah, it was. It wasn’t a dentist.
00:54:53:02 – 00:54:53:21
Koray Feran
Very seamless.
00:54:55:03 – 00:54:55:24
Chris Strevens
Freaky baby.
00:54:56:02 – 00:55:02:12
Andy Acton
Exactly. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Bruce Springsteen. I’ve not seen him, but apparently he’s on stage a lot for four and a half hours when he goes.
00:55:02:15 – 00:55:18:24
Koray Feran
He was he was good at it. He’s coming in next summer, actually, if you want to really listen to it. Springsteen is this on Netflix? SPRINGSTEEN Live on Broadway is his whole life in a in a one man show. So very, very recommended for anybody who’s a fan. Anybody who’s thinking about being a fan is that. Yes, that’s a good show.
00:55:18:24 – 00:55:28:11
Andy Acton
Premium call, I will let you go. We know you’ve got surgery again this afternoon. You need to eat. You need to eat. Have a few minutes rest. We really, really appreciate your time. It’s been wonderful. It’s been great.
00:55:28:17 – 00:55:30:09
Koray Feran
The invitation, a slightly different.
00:55:30:12 – 00:55:34:05
Andy Acton
We normally sit across the table with tea and toast, so it was nice to do it this way.
00:55:34:11 – 00:55:37:21
Koray Feran
You do that at Goodman’s on Friday night.
00:55:37:21 – 00:55:39:12
Andy Acton
I got to go. You know, thanks a lot.
00:55:39:17 – 00:55:41:06
Chris Strevens
I think it’s quite nice, man.
00:55:41:08 – 00:55:51:07
Andy Acton
Thank you for listening to this episode of Dentology where we discuss the business of dentistry. If you like what you heard, please do subscribe where you found this episode. That would be amazing. And also follow us on Instagram.
