Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Martina Hodgson
Episode release date – Monday 28 August 2023
Andy & Chris:
Here we go. Exciting one this week. It is. Aren’t they all exciting though? They are, but this one I’m looking forward to. The variety. I’m interested in talking a bit about the practice because it looks absolutely stunning, but I know that it will be a bit of a journey to get to absolutely stunning. Award-winning practice, don’t you know? Award-winning, yes. I’ve seen the plasticky, holdy things or whatever it is. Yeah, brilliant. So let’s get the introduction
Martina:
I’m tripping!
Andy & Chris:
done. So today, we are delighted. We have Martina Hodgson joining us Martina is a dentist and practice owner of Two Practices, the dental studio in Wakefield, which she’s had for a while. And more recently, Dental Architect in Leeds and also the co-founder of Inspiring Women in Dentistry. Welcome Martina. How are you?
Martina:
I’m good, thank you for having me. It’s an absolute
Andy & Chris:
You’re
Martina:
pleasure
Andy & Chris:
welcome.
Martina:
to
Andy & Chris:
Our
Martina:
be
Andy & Chris:
pleasure.
Martina:
on.
Andy & Chris:
You’re welcome. We’ve got, it feels like we’ve got an awful lot to get through. We could just do a whole episode on the dental architecting lead.
Martina:
Mm-hmm.
Andy & Chris:
It feels like a fairly new practice, but it’s been open for a little while now. But you charted
Martina:
over
Andy & Chris:
it
Martina:
here.
Andy & Chris:
so well. In terms of, over a year, wow,
Martina:
Just
Andy & Chris:
wow.
Martina:
every
Andy & Chris:
But before
Martina:
year, yeah.
Andy & Chris:
we get to the dental bit and dive into your crew in more detail, was there a time… you can look back on your childhood and say this is why I am the person I am today. What was your childhood like?
Martina:
I don’t think I’m… I had… I mean I had a lovely childhood, it was just very stable, very happy. I can’t really look back and think there’s any one particular thing that happened or anything like that. I mean my mum will sort of tell you that I was very kind of independent from a very early age, kind of strong-willed and headstrong and you know wanting to tie my shoelaces really early and all that kind of stuff. So I think I’ve always been quite… independent and just
Andy & Chris:
Where did you grow up Martina?
Martina:
I’m actually an Essex girl.
Andy & Chris:
I say because your accent is not a northern one.
Martina:
No, so I actually grew up in Essex until I was 18 and then I went to Leeds University. So I was obviously there for five years, then I went back down to London. I was in London for about four years, then I met my husband who’s from Leeds and so we moved back up to Leeds because I really like Leeds anyway and that was in 2005 and then I’ve been here ever since. So I have
Andy & Chris:
I
Martina:
a very
Andy & Chris:
will.
Martina:
confused accent. I’m
Andy & Chris:
Ha!
Martina:
confused myself.
Andy & Chris:
And there’s certain words that you sound very northern.
Martina:
Yeah, definitely. But I think when I’m with southerners, like as soon as I get off at King’s Cross and I get into a black cab, I become proper Cockney. Alright mate, give me a tight miss. And then like as soon as I get off at Leeds, I become northern again. So
Andy & Chris:
I
Martina:
yeah.
Andy & Chris:
think it’s really funny with accents. My father’s
Martina:
Yes.
Andy & Chris:
from Manchester, but he qualifies as a teacher. I went to Chester College, he came to London when he was in his mid-20s. But he still has certain words. And he went back to a school reunion, it was a 50-year school reunion fairly recently. And he was up in Chester and Manchester for two, three days. When he came back home to London… His accent had changed and I find it
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
amazing how we morph ourselves to our environment so quickly if we’re in a different space.
Martina:
Definitely and I think it’s important in a way to kind of, it’s that empathy thing isn’t it, when you’re talking to patients
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
or with a patient to kind of, you know, I remember when I came up and although I’ve got an Essex accent, everyone thought I was really posh, just because I would say bath instead of path and things like that. Instead of path and do you know what I mean? So.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Martina:
If it’s like that, I can’t change my fundamental pronunciation, like it would be weird. But then, yeah, I’ve definitely got a twang when I want to.
Andy & Chris:
So how did you meet your husband?
Martina:
Well actually, I went to university with his brother who was in the Kaiser Chiefs. So I was friends with him
Andy & Chris:
Okay.
Martina:
at university. And then I was down at a gig in Brighton and his brother was there who actually turned out to be my husband. So I actually met him through my brother-in-law.
Andy & Chris:
Ah, okay. I was just trying to work out in my head the chances of going to Leeds, then coming back to London, then meeting your husband from Leeds. But the chances on that must be quite random. And then now that
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
explains
Martina:
so
Andy & Chris:
why.
Martina:
it was through my friend Nick Hodgson. Yeah, who was
Andy & Chris:
Right,
Martina:
the drummer?
Andy & Chris:
well, okay, right, excellent. So you decided at a pretty young age that dentistry was for you, and I understand you were 13-year-old with your own braces, and
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
that was a point at which you decided you wanted to be a dentist. Quite remarkable, so young.
Martina:
Well, I just thought it was really interesting and cool. And I’ve always played the violin and piano. So I played that from quite an early age. And I also have always obviously really liked science subjects as well. So I’m quite dextrous. But I really
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Martina:
like the music. science side as well. So it kind of for me is that really nice marriage of kind of art, dexterity and science that all come together within dentistry. So that’s kind of why I went down that path. But really I did decide I wanted to be a dentist. I wanted to be an orthodontist actually.
Andy & Chris:
I was going to say, did you want to be an orthodontist or a dentist?
Martina:
I did.
Andy & Chris:
And then,
Martina:
I wanted to be
Andy & Chris:
right.
Martina:
an orthodontist and then when I went to Leeds University, I didn’t really understand the training, the orthodontic training at all, so I kind of, it put me off. So then I just went into general dentistry, never really thought much about it until things started coming out that were more aimed at the general
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
dentist, like the Inmanaliner came out and that’s
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
how I
Andy & Chris:
Yep.
Martina:
tried to get into it. So that was about 13 years ago and then that kind of piqued my interest again.
Andy & Chris:
Bye.
Martina:
And then I went on courses and just got much, much more in depth with it.
Andy & Chris:
Did you work that all out yourself, that you had a mixture of skills that were well disposed to dentistry? Or were you getting kind of careers advice through school that it might be something that would be good for you?
Martina:
No, I think the careers advice at school is to be a nurse. But yeah, to me, I was like, it was just, to me it was just a no-brainer. I couldn’t think why I wouldn’t do dentistry.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm
Martina:
It just seemed to, I seemed to have all the skills necessary for it, so I think it would, that or medicine, but then I felt like medicine, I just, I didn’t want to stay up late. I was like, I don’t want to work nights. So yeah,
Andy & Chris:
Huh.
Martina:
it was dentistry for me. It was that or actually being a professional violinist. So they were the two choices for me.
Andy & Chris:
Oh wow.
Martina:
And I just felt there was more career stability with dentistry.
Andy & Chris:
It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because quite often you hear dentists say it, or you sort of feel that there’s the dexterousness and the ability to do sort of this bit, but also they need the creativity and then with your violin and your piano, there’s that creativity music part, isn’t it? So in a way that builds you into also being the orthodontist you are, because they sort of all fit together, don’t they? It’s fascinating.
Martina:
home.
Andy & Chris:
I think it’s that. getting that little mix right. Well, I’ve seen people kind of explode out the word dentist and they say it’s like a dentist, an engineer and an artist. And
Martina:
Thank you.
Andy & Chris:
you can see how it kind of does, you’ve got all those elements. So you went to Leeds University and you were saying that you were the first person in your family to go to university. That’s quite an interesting thing for you to pick out of part of your story. Why is that important to you?
Martina:
I think I’m just quite proud of the fact that everything I’ve done, I’ve kind of done without… Obviously people help me, obviously it’s teamwork to get to where you are, but no one’s kind of handed me anything on a plate. I didn’t have parents who gave me a nice lump sum to invest in a practice. When I first bought my first practice, that was me going to the bank and asking for the money and sleep was nice and just doing it on my
Andy & Chris:
How old
Martina:
own.
Andy & Chris:
were you when you bought your first one?
Martina:
So it was when I moved back up to Leeds, I became an associate at the dental studio, and that was in 2005. And I was there about two years before I bought one of the two partners out. So I bought one of the partners out in 2007, and then the other partner retired probably about, oh God, it must be about eight years ago now, and then I bought her half out. So it was a kind of really nice. gradual entry into
Andy & Chris:
transition
Martina:
practicum
Andy & Chris:
as such.
Martina:
and it wasn’t anything that I ever dreamt of or wanted to do. Like I didn’t really want to own a practice but this guy who just banging on at me till I bought him out and because I’ve been there quite a few years and I just loved it and I loved the people and the team I just thought okay well and when I look back now on the amount of money that I borrowed at the time which I was having sleep this nice I’m just like, oh my god, that was such a bargain.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Martina:
No, like, it just, it’s crazy. Like, you just can’t
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Martina:
buy a practice for that now. So,
Andy & Chris:
No, no.
Martina:
you know,
Andy & Chris:
But
Martina:
but.
Andy & Chris:
also I think sometimes in the early days of all of our business careers, having a bit of kind of naivety in there just to kind of go with it because it seems like a good idea, isn’t a bad thing. And I think now, as you get slightly older, you kind of analyze things a bit more. And you do get in your own way of doing things. Whereas I think when you’re younger, you’re much more gung-ho to go about it. So how long were you an associate for before you bought? bought in as a partner. It’s not very long, but it sounds like it. Was it just two years?
Martina:
Well, at that practice it was two years, so I qualified in 2001. So
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Martina:
it was six years after qualifying.
Andy & Chris:
Wow. Right, okay, but you don’t see it as a risk. No. I don’t
Martina:
not really
Andy & Chris:
feel
Martina:
because…
Andy & Chris:
that getting, you know, listening to you don’t sort of thought, oh, you might’ve worried a bit about once you’d done it, but not so much doing it.
Martina:
I’m not a risk averse person. I really don’t mind taking risks at all.
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
You know, educated risks. And to me,
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
it was a very well established practice. I already had my own patient base. I already knew the team. I knew the ins and outs. I was going in with a partner who’d been at that practice 20 years. So… you know the only risk was borrowing the money I suppose and then it all goes into
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
it’s up and the only loser then is the bank so you know that’s what my husband said to me at the time
Andy & Chris:
Yeah. And they could afford to lose it.
Martina:
exactly he said you don’t need to you know it’s like when the bank has sleepless nights that when you need to worry and that’s the end of that
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, what is it? There’s no…
Martina:
That same
Andy & Chris:
Yeah
Martina:
bank manager, David Marston, he’s still my bank manager today. You know,
Andy & Chris:
Yeah
Martina:
I’ve got this really long relationship, which is so nice.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm
Martina:
And he’s now West and you know, he’s just so supportive. It’s been great. Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
Which is good. Which is interesting though, because so many people have got to that stage but not borrowed the money.
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
Yes. They want to push that button. We see a lot of people who… are just serial tire kickers. They love the idea that they’re going to own a practice and they go and review practices, but they never quite take that step. You know, in your case, it was signing that offer letter, borrowing the money, you know, taking over. So credit you for doing that. There’s a lot of people that like the idea. So you’ve obviously been in an environment where you’ve been an associate, you then worked in a partnership and now you’re sole principal of your two practices. not that many people kind of go through that kind of being in a partnership and then being a sole principal. Having the experience of both, which would you say you prefer? Do you prefer having a partner or are you a driven woman who wants to have it all their own way?
Martina:
I would never have a partner again. That comes from years of experience and obviously the confidence that comes with that. I felt very held back. for a long time
Andy & Chris:
Hmm. Bye.
Martina:
and as soon as I was able to fully take over, that’s when I started doubling turnover and things really took off because I was able to implement the things that I wanted to implement. For example, one of the first things I did, and it sounds crazy, is I got digital x-rays and then I got a TCO and I was one of the first practices in Yorkshire to have a TCO and to have a scan up. it’s a different generation of dentists who is my partner, she was gonna let me have
Andy & Chris:
What
Martina:
a t.
Andy & Chris:
worlds were you operating in, Martina? To decide that a scanner was important for the future of your practice and you needed a TTO, what kind of part of density were you being exposed to have these ideas or was it just instinctive for you?
Martina:
It was instinctive because I’ve always been really passionate about the patient journey.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
And so I feel like if you can give your patients an amazing patient journey and look after them really well, the rest will follow. And so to me, the TCO was that step up in terms of patient experience and patient care and something that no other practice was offering. So it was a USP at the time. And then in terms of the scanner, that came because I just at that time, I got the TCO and then I just started doing the Invisalign. So it started to all come together because suddenly I thought, oh, my TCO can now help me with the Invisalign. And then I could see where the scanner would come in. But again, it was an educated risk because buying a scanner at the time, I think it was, or even now, they’re still really expensive. I bought an iTero and I think it was about, I don’t know, £30,000, which was a huge amount of money.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
And you know what? Well, I asked my accountant and I said, do you know, do you think I should get this scanner? And he was just like, yeah, all the practices that have a scanner are more profitable. So when your accountant tells
Andy & Chris:
Hmph.
Martina:
you to buy a scanner,
Andy & Chris:
Hm.
Martina:
you know, you’re like, okay, I’ll buy a scanner. And I actually worked it out that it took three months to get my money back from that scanner
Andy & Chris:
Wow.
Martina:
in the increased
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
number of Invisalign cases that I sold.
Andy & Chris:
Well that’s a good return on investments, isn’t it?
Martina:
Yeah. So I’ve got four now.
Andy & Chris:
Brilliant, brilliant. So you’ve been, obviously going right back to your teenage years when you had the braces, that was kind of the light bulb moment about dentistry and particularly orthodontics and then you qualified and you were general for a while, but you’ve actually been involved in orthodontics now for 12, 13 years, something like that. It’s been a big part of your business.
Martina:
Yeah, so I’m not an orthodontist, I’m just
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
a general practitioner. My practice is pretty much 95% dedicated to orthodontics, particularly in Visalign. And I’ve spent a lot of time and done a lot of courses. So, you know, I did a two-year fixed course with Jonathan Sandler down in Bakewell, so that taught me how to do really, you know, big extraction cases, treat children. Then I went on to do the, I was in the first cohort of the clear aligner diploma, so that was another 18 month qualification. And again, just like experience, just surrounding myself by people that I can learn from as well. So I do kind of like hanging out with all the dauntists. So I know there’s that traditional kind of… clash between general practitioners and orthodontists, but I think, I hope that I have the respect of orthodontists. I’m never going to say I’m a specialist. I’m never going to say I’ve got that skill set.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm. Out of interest, Martina, why have you never pursued the route of getting to a stage where you joined the specialist register?
Martina:
Yeah, because by that time I got two kids and a practice and it just felt like that ship had sailed.
Andy & Chris:
Mm. Right,
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
yeah. Yeah,
Martina:
and I like
Andy & Chris:
had
Martina:
that
Andy & Chris:
a
Martina:
show.
Andy & Chris:
lot.
Martina:
I actually think I’ve got best of both worlds to be
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Martina:
honest. I
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Martina:
actually
Andy & Chris:
so you
Martina:
really
Andy & Chris:
don’t
Martina:
like
Andy & Chris:
really
Martina:
that.
Andy & Chris:
lose out. No, no, not
Martina:
I
Andy & Chris:
at all.
Martina:
like that I
Andy & Chris:
Not
Martina:
can
Andy & Chris:
at
Martina:
finish
Andy & Chris:
all
Martina:
the cases myself. I like that I can do that multidisciplinary dentistry
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
and plan the whole case myself and deliver it. I like that, so.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, and I think as time’s gone on, there’s no doubt that many years ago, and I could end up upsetting a lot of orthodontists here, it was a true niche and a speciality, but I think with the advent of technology, a lot of it being driven by a line, I think orthodontics has become way more mainstream, particularly on the clear aligner side. than it was many years ago. So I think it’s easier for general practitioners to have an orthodontic element within a general practice and perhaps it would have been 10, 15 years ago. You’ve also been involved in this world for a while. How have you seen that evolution of clear aligners change over the last sort of 10, 12 years in practices? The movement. Yeah, boom boom.
Martina:
Yeah, I think obviously it’s just so widespread now and so many dentists
Andy & Chris:
Yup.
Martina:
are doing it and I think it can be a little bit worrying. The lack of knowledge that people are… going into providing
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
clear aligners and I can see that is going to be a big problem and I see
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
these cases come in to my own practice like I had a lady yesterday come in and the IPR that had been done, it was, I could cry, it was awful and
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
the case wasn’t finished, the teeth were still crooked and that
Andy & Chris:
Ah well.
Martina:
is really, really concerning.
Andy & Chris:
And did she think her treatment had been finished?
Martina:
No, she wasn’t happy. She wasn’t
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Martina:
happy with the result. But she said, you know, she said this dentist who’d done the treatment had told her she was one of her first cases and all this kind of
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
stuff. So I think that it is a bit worrying dentists that are going into it with zero knowledge. You know, they do a one day certification course and they come out and they don’t really know where to start, which is where my new course comes in.
Andy & Chris:
Ha ha.
Martina:
I’m gonna get my plug in. I have just launched, it’s called the Alina Launchpad, and it’s a two day course specifically aimed at those dentists who’ve just done a day certification and then just feel like, yeah, maybe they’re not ready to commit to an 18 month diploma or the other courses that are out there a little bit advanced. It’s really just to give them that little bit more knowledge and…
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm. Did the signal just go then?
Martina:
treat cases safely. Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
Heh.
Martina:
so if you’re interested, you can visit my Instagram.
Andy & Chris:
No, honestly, Martina, we’d be very happy if you could send us the link, we’ll drop
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
it in the
Martina:
that
Andy & Chris:
show
Martina:
would
Andy & Chris:
notes.
Martina:
be amazing, thank you. It’s
Andy & Chris:
We’ll
Martina:
in October,
Andy & Chris:
drop it in the show
Martina:
2021.
Andy & Chris:
notes, because the reality is anything that can help dentists improve their skills, you know, it makes sense to share that. Because I think you’re right, I think in any market where there’s an explosion and a growth, the risk is that some people move too quickly and they’re not prepared for it. And because there’s obviously a proportion of the population that might be litigious. you don’t want to be storing up problems down the line. So the better informed and trained and educated people are the better ones. It puts up everybody’s PI cover. Exactly.
Martina:
Yeah, and the trouble is you don’t know what you don’t know. That’s what’s
Andy & Chris:
Yes.
Martina:
scary.
Andy & Chris:
So you were happy, um, toddling along, running the dental studio. And then back in 2022, which obviously was in the pipeline way before that, you then decided to set up a squat, a private squat dental practice in the center of Leeds, which is the dental architect, which
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
if anybody listening hasn’t seen it, Google it for sure. Cause this is an amazing looking practice. It looks terrible.
Martina:
I’m sorry.
Andy & Chris:
It’s an amazing looking practice. It doesn’t look like a practice does it really? No. You know apart from the chairs but when you look at the whole reception and you’ll be very clever with the patient videos and stuff like that. It doesn’t look like a… No it’s very smart. So a squat practice is an incredibly hard thing to do. So on a scale of 1 to 10 how hard was it? Because most people don’t ever see the end result, you know, the bit before that. Doesn’t necessarily get so- Can I ask a question before you answer that? Did you think of it pre-COVID?
Martina:
during
Andy & Chris:
Or
Martina:
COVID,
Andy & Chris:
post-COVID?
Martina:
it was
Andy & Chris:
Sorry?
Martina:
during… Yeah, so it was a completely opportunistic thing. My husband’s in property and he just bought this building, this beautiful, like, neogothic five-story building in the centre of Leeds and he wanted me to come and have a look at it and we didn’t have much else to do, so I went and had a look and it was like a complete building site, so they stripped, it was gutted, so there was no floors, no ceilings, no walls. nothing
Andy & Chris:
I will.
Martina:
and I just walked in and I just it like hit me so I wasn’t looking to open a practice or anything like that but I just kind of all I could see was like this Invisalign practice and then it just kind of went from there really so it was a complete opportunistic thing which is me all over I get these stupid ideas and then it just went from there really kind of snowballed our control It was too late to turn back!
Andy & Chris:
Once you’ve committed.
Martina:
Yeah, I told
Andy & Chris:
And…
Martina:
too many people.
Andy & Chris:
Ha ha ha. Man, that’s
Martina:
I spent
Andy & Chris:
probably quite
Martina:
too much
Andy & Chris:
a good
Martina:
money.
Andy & Chris:
lesson, isn’t it? If you tell people, it has to happen. Well, yeah, but I think with goals and all those sorts of things, I think if you start telling people, it does, it puts pressure on you to… Make sure accountable in a sort of bizarre way, doesn’t it? So how tough was it? Did it go to plan? Did it go to time? Did it go to budget? Or did you miss all of those things?
Martina:
none of that. So out of 10 I’d say how hard was it? Like 100. Yeah obviously think of a budget, triple it. Did it go to time?
Andy & Chris:
Now the budget thing though, Martina, was the budget because you misjudged or was it one of those ones of when you start to see it evolve you just got more excited about it, so you added.
Martina:
I think you stop, you know, when it’s kind of, you think, I’ve got this opportunity now, like I’ve spent years refining my patient journey, I’m building my whole new practice around this patient journey. And you can’t compromise because you know, you’ve only got this one opportunity to create something really unique and really beautiful. And I think it really was for me, a kind of expression of myself.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
way of, you know, I’m not very good at art or anything like that, but it was my way of expressing myself in a business. It’s a weird thing to say, but that’s kind of what it was. And so, yeah, I think, and it just got bigger and bigger, like physically
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
bigger and bigger. as well. Like it was only supposed to be two or three surgeries. Now it’s got potential for nine. I took another floor. You know, it just all spiralled out of control
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
in my head. And that’s where we ended up. So
Andy & Chris:
Yeah. But you
Martina:
yeah.
Andy & Chris:
said about that representation of you, I think that’s the very best end of private dentistry. I think when you go into practice and it’s a reflection of the principle and the team, and it feels quite personal, I think that’s for me quite a clear distinction between corporate dentistry and independent dentistry. It has personality and culture and vision. Well congruent, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s led by an individual’s vision and passion. I think you see that in what you’ve achieved and what you’ve created there. you can see that was created by a person. It didn’t kind of go through a corporate machine and that’s what got churned out, because it wouldn’t have got churned out in that style. And I think that discerning patients get drawn to that sort of environment. It would have looked like
Martina:
I hope
Andy & Chris:
every
Martina:
so.
Andy & Chris:
Hilton hotel in the world. Yeah, exactly. So there’s a lot of people that listen to this, we talked to a lot of people who have this ambition of creating a squat practice. What would be your two bits of advice to somebody who was thinking about? setting up a Scott Dental Practice. You’ve got to only limit it to two, as there might be loads. One of them was not, don’t do it.
Martina:
Yeah, I was like, don’t do it. I think it’s about having a good team around you. So it depends what your experience is, because obviously I was quite an experienced practice owner. So to me, I knew exactly what I needed to do.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
I just had years of building contacts with suppliers, builders, my bank. and all that kind of thing. So for me, I suppose I was in a, I had a little bit of a head start in that way and that I wasn’t going into the unknown. I knew exactly in my head what I was going to need to achieve to deliver it. And so that was really good. But if you’re starting, if you’re just, you’re an associate and you’re wanting, you know, you’ve got no idea how to run a business. You’ve got no idea.
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
you know, what the compliance is for a start. You’ve
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
got, you’ve never gone through a CQC inspection. You’ve never, you know, gone to the bank before for a loan. And I think it’s about kind of trying to build those contacts, build those relationships in advance.
Andy & Chris:
Mmm.
Martina:
If that’s something you want to do, find a builder that you really trust. You know, just start meeting those suppliers and, because at the end of the day, you are going to be working with people and it’s having those relationships with those people that are going to help you and believe
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
in you. And to be honest, I couldn’t have done any of it without the fact that people just believed in the project. You know,
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
you’re an accountant.
Andy & Chris:
But also that comes from you, your passion and you energizing them to be part of that project would have pulled them
Martina:
It
Andy & Chris:
along.
Martina:
is.
Andy & Chris:
I was going to say,
Martina:
You’ve
Andy & Chris:
did
Martina:
got
Andy & Chris:
you
Martina:
to
Andy & Chris:
manage
Martina:
tell it.
Andy & Chris:
the development?
Martina:
So there was a project manager in terms of the build, but yeah obviously every stage in terms of the architectural designs, every little last to the plug sockets
Andy & Chris:
Mmm.
Martina:
I was involved with, yeah, every
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
single part of it.
Andy & Chris:
It’s a lot of effort and input, isn’t it? You know, because you’re also running
Martina:
I’m
Andy & Chris:
a
Martina:
not
Andy & Chris:
practice
Martina:
going
Andy & Chris:
and a
Martina:
to
Andy & Chris:
family,
Martina:
fall off with me. It’s a form of effort.
Andy & Chris:
you know, it’s like flip, oh, we’ve got a site meeting. I can just imagine it’s like, oh, by the way, we need to talk to you about the fact that we found that you can’t do this, but do that in a weird way was locked down was COVID fortuitous in a way that it actually created some time and space for you to design this out planet and work
Martina:
No,
Andy & Chris:
out why is everybody else’s making
Martina:
not really,
Andy & Chris:
banana
Martina:
because
Andy & Chris:
bread, you were building a
Martina:
we
Andy & Chris:
practice.
Martina:
weren’t, we weren’t, the practices weren’t in lockdown. We were back to work as normal by that
Andy & Chris:
So
Martina:
point.
Andy & Chris:
this was after the middle of this
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
was after
Martina:
this is
Andy & Chris:
June.
Martina:
laughter.
Andy & Chris:
So you.
Martina:
Yeah, but I think the other piece of advice I would give is just don’t procrastinate with your decision making. You know, sometimes I think people find it very hard to make decisions. You’re going to have to make 100 decisions every day.
Andy & Chris:
Yep.
Martina:
And you just have to make a decision, and sometimes it might be the wrong decision, and it
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
might not be perfect. And I think too many people wait for perfect.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
You know, and I think you can sometimes never get anything achieved if you do that.
Andy & Chris:
I think you’re right, isn’t it? People are quite linear because they think sometimes there’s a right decision and a wrong decision, but actually there could be 10 decisions and actually nine are okay, they’re just different decisions.
Martina:
Yeah, sometimes you just need to make a decision.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, I think Barack Obama, he was talking in Brazil and somebody asked him a similar thing about, you know, you’re making global decisions and how do you make them and he said 51%. You said when you’ve got information that means you’re 51% confident, make a decision. And then it’s exactly what you just said. If the, if more information comes to light, don’t be afraid to change your decision. But
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
at least if you make a decision, you will keep moving forward. Whereas if you don’t make a decision, basically nothing happens.
Martina:
Exactly.
Andy & Chris:
How do you split your time now between Wakefield and Leeds between, because you’ve also got the two practices that you’re running and managing now. How does that work?
Martina:
Yes, sir. I do two and a half days clinical at the Dental Architect. I don’t do any clinical anymore at the Dental Studio. I have an amazing practice manager, Mel, who’s kind of made her way up from being my nurse 10 years ago to then head nurse to now practice manager. And then I have Amanda, who’s my business manager across both sites and practice manager’s dental architect as well, who’s absolutely amazing. So I feel like because at the dental studio, my older practice, you know like today I just went to the staff meeting, I didn’t have anything to do with setting it up but they’re so empowered there now. I’ve lost, I’ve took that control, I’m out of control of that. I just turn up once a week, I have like an hour and a half meeting with my practice manager, and then I rock up at kind of staff meetings and Christmas days, and I feel like I’m like the nice aunt now, who’s the fun parent, because I’m not there every day going, do this, do that, you’re not doing that right,
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
stop leaving that mess. I just come along and like, I’m so
Andy & Chris:
How does
Martina:
happy.
Andy & Chris:
that sit with you? Because when you described the way you created the Dental Architect, it sounded like there was a lot of micromanagement. You were involved in all the small details, all the small decisions. So whilst some of it was delegated, you were very involved in that process. Yet what you just described at the Dental Studio is that you just described the art of delegation in that you
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
now have good people. So are you able to kind of dial in and dial out as you need to? Or do you find… delegating not a natural position for you.
Martina:
I don’t think… Dentists are good at delegating in general.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
I find it really hard to delegate, but I have so much faith in my manager. That practice
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
has been running for so long. They know what’s expected of them. It’s a really, really stable, very, very busy patient base. So I don’t feel like I need to be in there micromanaging everything that’s going on there because I feel there’s an amazing team. receptionist and they just they run that practice and they know if you know if you share your values with your team and they understand what your the practice values are and we actually had a session a while back with the team where we actually built our values as a team and you know what their value I have my own core values and two out the three values they picked from all the words in the world they could have picked for the same as my core values so you naturally over time you collect people who align with your core values
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
And if they don’t align with your core values, they leave. So
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
you collect this team. And I went in this morning for this staff meeting. And I just look around. And every time, I’m like, I just love you guys. They’re great.
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
But when you’ve got a very new practice, it’s a whole different kettle of fish. Because it’s brand
Andy & Chris:
But
Martina:
new.
Andy & Chris:
there’s no
Martina:
No.
Andy & Chris:
tribe, there’s no tribe, is there? There’s no tribe for people to see how it works.
Martina:
No, so it’s like that process takes time. So you have to be a lot more involved in that. And then eventually it’ll get to the situation where that’s sort of running itself as well, but it’s not gonna happen overnight.
Andy & Chris:
Did you move, did any of your team from Wakefield move over to Leeds or was it a
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
completely fresh start?
Martina:
no, I’ve got several associates that work at both sites.
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Martina:
I had some, a nurse that came over, TCO that came over. So yeah, it wasn’t starting from absolute scratch.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, so it was
Martina:
But
Andy & Chris:
a
Martina:
yeah,
Andy & Chris:
bit
Martina:
it’s
Andy & Chris:
of
Martina:
quite
Andy & Chris:
seed
Martina:
nice. It’s
Andy & Chris:
there
Martina:
nice
Andy & Chris:
that
Martina:
having like…
Andy & Chris:
yeah, so in terms of some of those values and culture You’d already
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
built something special at Wakefield So you like you say you had a you had a little bit of a start which was created by you in leads already And then there’s always new people came in there was that sort of an embryo of a tribe already Which is interesting. Do
Martina:
that
Andy & Chris:
you still
Martina:
year.
Andy & Chris:
enjoy your two and a half clinical days?
Martina:
I do. I think I would miss it if I didn’t do it. I think I’ll probably eventually cut it down even more because I do like the business side of it as well. But yeah, I still like my clinical dentistry.
Andy & Chris:
So when you in your in your given week, what’s your what’s your best day of the week? Is it clinical dentistry? Or is it working on the business? I was
Martina:
I
Andy & Chris:
having
Martina:
like
Andy & Chris:
a
Martina:
both.
Andy & Chris:
lane on
Martina:
I
Andy & Chris:
a
Martina:
feel
Andy & Chris:
Sunday.
Martina:
like, I’ll be honest, when I’m in surgery, that’s like my comfort zone because
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Martina:
that’s like, I’m in control, I’m confident with it. And I think,
Andy & Chris:
And that’s the area you spent most of your professional
Martina:
yeah,
Andy & Chris:
training to know how
Martina:
exactly.
Andy & Chris:
to do.
Martina:
But then running a business, I’ve never done any business training or anything like that. And I think that’s hard.
Andy & Chris:
Mmm.
Martina:
when you, you know, so I love it, but it is challenging. But then you can have challenging days in surgery as well. So, you know.
Andy & Chris:
There’s a saying which is learn from your mistakes, which I think is a really crap phrase. I think you should really learn from other people’s mistakes. Given the entrepreneurial journey that you’ve had, what tip would you give to people who are starting out on theirs? What’s the one thing that’s really stood out for you that you wish you’d have known 15 years ago?
Martina:
I think just to believe in yourself and to be authentic to yourself because it wasn’t until the penny dropped that I didn’t really understand what made a good leader or anything like that. And I think the penny dropped for me in COVID that I stopped listening to. what other people were doing or telling me to do. And I started going with my own gut feeling or educated, you know,
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
decisions. And I started realizing that when I did that, life was a lot easier and I was a better leader because I wasn’t trying to be a leader like someone else that I admired or…
Andy & Chris:
Mm-hmm.
Martina:
So I think just be true to yourself and I think that comes with confidence and age and experience as well. But if you’re true to yourself then you can’t really ever go wrong because you’re just doing it your way and if
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
your way is well-intentioned and ethical and with the best interests of everybody around you at heart then
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
I don’t think you can make a wrong decision.
Andy & Chris:
No. And I think also if you’re your authentic self, people can sign in or sign out of that. They might be like, actually, I don’t like the way you do that. That doesn’t make them right or you wrong.
Martina:
No.
Andy & Chris:
But it means you’re going to filter your tribe is easier to find because you’re consistent in how you are. And like
Martina:
Exactly.
Andy & Chris:
I say, some people will love your style and some people might not, but that’s okay. But at least you’re going to make sure you’ve got a bunch of people that kind of follow you for who you are, as opposed to who you’re trying to be.
Martina:
Exactly. And I think, you know, as well, people have always got opinion about you. And often it’s when they haven’t met you.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Martina:
And
Andy & Chris:
always.
Martina:
I think people are surprised when they meet me sometimes. But yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? But you can only just be yourself and people are always
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
going to have an opinion. And that’s fine,
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
because that’s the them issue.
Andy & Chris:
Oh, and the reality is we can’t control other people’s opinions of ourselves. What they’re thoughts are, yeah. Yeah, so we just kind of continue as we are. One of the other things that you’re very passionate about is uplifting women in dentistry as well, in that you co-founded Inspiring Women in Dentistry. As two white males, it would be very interesting to get your perspective on what’s it like to be a woman in dentistry? Are things getting better, getting worse? What are the challenges that you would have that perhaps wouldn’t necessarily be obvious to certain parts of the profession? There’s definitely more women in dentistry than there used to be, for sure.
Martina:
Absolutely. So I think the challenges are changing for women in dentistry and I think You know, I’ve never I can’t say I’ve come across overt Sexism that I’m aware of I think maybe mild sexism, but I know kind of female dentists of a slightly older generation who have literally come across outright sexism, but from that kind of old school male,
Andy & Chris:
Mmm,
Martina:
white
Andy & Chris:
mmm.
Martina:
male dominated.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
place, whereas I think there’s so much effort going into dentistry now too. As we know, there’s more women going into dentistry, but there’s actually, I think you might be able to back me up on this, there’s less women owning practices now, would that be right? From your kind
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Martina:
of perspective?
Andy & Chris:
most of our buyers would be males. Yeah, yeah. I
Martina:
So.
Andy & Chris:
mean, interesting enough though, Martyn, I would say that over the last five years, more women are buying practices than they probably have done before, which is quite interesting. Previously, it was a rarity, but now
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
there do seem to be more women who are saying, actually, no, I’m gonna buy practices. But also, in my experience, women tend to make outstanding principles as well. I think quite often they’re soft skills and the compassion. is more engendered in the team than perhaps with men. So I think where
Martina:
There
Andy & Chris:
women
Martina:
is a
Andy & Chris:
do
Martina:
difference.
Andy & Chris:
move into a position of being a principal,
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
they do an outstanding job.
Martina:
There’s definitely a difference between the way men and women run their practices, and
Andy & Chris:
Mm.
Martina:
neither is right or wrong.
Andy & Chris:
No, no. It’s different.
Martina:
But if you sit in a room full of female practice owners, which obviously I have, the conversation is around the team.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah
Martina:
If you sit in a room… This is just my own experience, but if you sit in a room of male .. practice owners, which I also have done, the conversation is around money and profit. And you actually need both. You know, you need
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
to care about both to have a successful business because there ain’t no business gonna… You’re not gonna keep people’s jobs if you can’t make a profit. But to make a profit, you need to look after your team. So I think both is really important and I think we can learn from each other from that. But I think the
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
challenges that women have are different now. I think, I know for myself, like working mother guilt is a huge, huge issue.
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Martina:
And you know, wanting, you know, that being torn between spending time with your children and then
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
doing something that you’re passionate about in your work. And I feel like…
Andy & Chris:
And is that a self-inflicted mother-gill, or is society also doing insane things that add to that burden?
Martina:
I think it’s both.
Andy & Chris:
Right.
Martina:
Yeah, I still think there’s an expectation of women are the main child carers.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, I think there is.
Martina:
Not in my marriage, but, you know, whether it, you know, I think there are situations and society still expects that. And, you know, I think that’s always been like that. And, you know, I think it’s gonna take a lot to change it. But I think women also, put a lot on themselves in terms of like this desire to be perfect before we do anything. This desire
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
to have a perfect Instagram post of a before and after before we put it on Instagram. This desire to kind of, if I want to buy a business, I want everything to be perfect. And you can’t go through life like that. You need to just do everything the best you can, but sometimes you’ll never start if you wait for perfect, like I say.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Martina:
And
Andy & Chris:
yeah.
Martina:
then you’ve got imposter syndrome. Men suffer from imposter syndrome. it’s so over talked about now, but I think women need more mentoring than women do. I think women need a champion. Women need more female role models, which is what I feel my responsibility is. And that’s where
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
I feel I come in because if I put my head above the parapet, then shots are going to get fired. But that’s actually fine by me. And
Andy & Chris:
The
Martina:
I
Andy & Chris:
thing
Martina:
think…
Andy & Chris:
is you’re strong and confident so you can be that tall poppy
Martina:
If I can do that for other women,
Andy & Chris:
Yeah
Martina:
that’s cool. And then there’s this like, you know, this tall poppy syndrome, isn’t there? There’s this
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
kind of, when you, you know, and I, until I started to become a little bit more high profile and never come across it, and then suddenly I read about this tall poppy syndrome where, you know, successful women kind of get cut down and the studies show it’s usually by men. And
Andy & Chris:
Buh.
Martina:
that was really interesting to me because it suddenly made a few situations click in my head. And I was like, oh my god, that’s what was happening and I didn’t see it.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
And I think that women are in general very, very supportive of each other. But as soon as… That’s very broad, but this is what studies
Andy & Chris:
Yeah, yeah.
Martina:
are proving. When men see successful women, they see of it as a threat or there’s even jealousy. And I think that comes into play sometimes.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
And I wouldn’t say I’ve come across it a lot, and I’d actually be, I’m so proud to say, I know so many men in dentistry who are absolutely smashing it, and they couldn’t be more supportive and more amazing, and I have so many good friends who are really smashing it in dentistry who are male. And I almost think here’s those that maybe feel like that threat,
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
that’s where it comes from.
Andy & Chris:
Well, I think there’s a saying, isn’t there, about happiness, that everybody wants you to be happy, but just not any more happy than they are.
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
And I think that probably comes through into success as well, that there’s lots of people rooting for you to have success, but just don’t be more successful than me. And that might lead to some people trying to sort of undermine you or pull you back in some way or the other. Yeah, because you have had incredible success. You know. your practice at Wakefield, if you’d have stayed there with that, that’s a phenomenal practice. But to then go on and do the dental architect and the work you do with Invisalign and your courses and you are high profile, undoubtedly there are going to be people that will want to take a pop shot at you. Yeah, that’s just the way it works, isn’t it? Which isn’t right. Which is a shame, but it’s the way it is. It’s a crying shame, but credit
Martina:
I don’t
Andy & Chris:
to you for
Martina:
mind,
Andy & Chris:
kind
Martina:
I’ll tell
Andy & Chris:
of…
Martina:
you why I don’t mind, is because those people who do that, they’re always the people that don’t know me.
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
They don’t actually know me. And I’m like, okay, well say what you want because you don’t know me. And the people that know me, if they were to do that, then that would be a different story because
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
that’s not personal. So, there you go.
Andy & Chris:
Oh, good for you. Good for you. I’d like to say I’ve only met you a few times. I think we first met at a course. and you just have an air of confidence about you, which is unusual. Lots of people kind of don’t have that presence and a lot of it may have come from your upbringing and your strong family. Yeah,
Martina:
I see.
Andy & Chris:
it might be the Essex blood in you
Martina:
I’m
Andy & Chris:
and
Martina:
sorry.
Andy & Chris:
the success you’ve had in business, but I think it’s inspiring and I don’t think it’s just a woman thing. I think it’s inspiring generally across dentistry. I think people should be looking at. you and other people and saying look this is what can be achieved and I think particularly for women it’s very strong but I don’t think it’s just exclusively for women. I think if people are successful they’re successful regardless of their sex. I think anybody should be able to look at you and be inspired by it. Martina we always ask I guess the same two questions, ideas as to as to your thinking. If you could be the fly on the wall in a situation, what situation would that be? Where would you be and who’d be there?
Martina:
That’s such a hard question. I don’t have an
Andy & Chris:
Yeah
Martina:
answer. Um, if I could be a fly on the wall… Hmm. Wouldn’t it be really cool? Like, it’s just a real general thing, but wouldn’t it be really cool to be at, like, some kind of, um… like, amazing legends party? Like, say, like, David Bowie had an amazing party, or Freddie Mercury, and just, like, be at that party and actually see what goes on? behind closed doors with these amazing
Andy & Chris:
Yeah. You
Martina:
people.
Andy & Chris:
hope it’s as fun and as ridiculous as you imagine, as opposed to literally everyone just sitting around chatting about what they did
Martina:
and
Andy & Chris:
last
Martina:
drinking
Andy & Chris:
weekend.
Martina:
tea.
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Martina:
No,
Andy & Chris:
it’d
Martina:
you
Andy & Chris:
be
Martina:
want
Andy & Chris:
so disappointing.
Martina:
like, no, you want people going round with
Andy & Chris:
You want
Martina:
plates
Andy & Chris:
the full
Martina:
of
Andy & Chris:
rock
Martina:
cocaine.
Andy & Chris:
and roll,
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
don’t you? You want
Martina:
that’s
Andy & Chris:
the full
Martina:
what you
Andy & Chris:
rock
Martina:
want.
Andy & Chris:
and roll. You want to be
Martina:
That’s
Andy & Chris:
the fly
Martina:
what you
Andy & Chris:
in
Martina:
want.
Andy & Chris:
the water, and actually
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
you don’t
Martina:
you want.
Andy & Chris:
want to be the fly in the water with Shane Warne just before he died, because by all accounts that’s not a great one. He was a bit lively with old Shane, wasn’t he?
Martina:
Oh.
Andy & Chris:
He parted, that man parted.
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
No,
Martina:
definitely.
Andy & Chris:
that would be
Martina:
That
Andy & Chris:
good. That would be good to see what the reality
Martina:
would be so
Andy & Chris:
of
Martina:
fun.
Andy & Chris:
that is. And if you were given the opportunity to meet somebody, you can sit down and have a glass of wine with a person. Who would you like to meet?
Martina:
I mean, there’s just so many people. But I think my son, Dexter, he’s like right into his kind of metal and kind of 80s, 90s rock music. He’s listening to Nirvana and Metallica
Andy & Chris:
Oh wow.
Martina:
and all that stuff at the moment. And so I’m kind of get, I’ve never thought I would call myself a Metallica fan. I didn’t even know who they were. But now I can like name all their 10 albums or something in the backstory. Queen and I’ve always loved Queen, you
Andy & Chris:
Yeah.
Martina:
know, growing up, listening to Queen all the time. And one of his favorite bands is Queen. So he’s been watching that film, Bohemian Rhapsody.
Andy & Chris:
Bruh yeah
Martina:
And I think it would, I’ll really regret never having seen Queen with Freddie Mercury live because. I just think that would have been amazing and I would have loved to met Freddie Mercury
Andy & Chris:
Hmm.
Martina:
because I just think he was an absolutely fascinating, inspiring
Andy & Chris:
An incredible
Martina:
character.
Andy & Chris:
showman, incredible showman.
Martina:
Just unbelievable. So just because that’s my current theme
Andy & Chris:
Hmm
Martina:
going on at the house at the
Andy & Chris:
Well,
Martina:
moment.
Andy & Chris:
you’ll be coming back on again at some point and things might have moved on you might come back on and say actually My son’s now into a ha and I want to be Morton Hargan or whatever his
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
name I’m just saying something about Freddie and his teeth as well Wasn’t
Martina:
Freddy’s
Andy & Chris:
it something to
Martina:
teeth.
Andy & Chris:
do with they recommended that they take some that he had something like orthodontist We often just real teeth removed, but he wouldn’t do it because he said it would change his vocal
Martina:
No, because
Andy & Chris:
range
Martina:
he had like a really
Andy & Chris:
Isn’t
Martina:
big
Andy & Chris:
there
Martina:
overture.
Andy & Chris:
something
Martina:
Yeah,
Andy & Chris:
about his teeth or something? He’s bite or something
Martina:
so they said like he didn’t want it to change his, it helped his range, he thought it helped his
Andy & Chris:
Yeah,
Martina:
range.
Andy & Chris:
that’s right.
Martina:
Yeah.
Andy & Chris:
Right, yeah. Yeah. See, look, there’s a link. There we go. Look at that.
Martina:
between Freddie Mercury and orthodontics.
Andy & Chris:
Look at that, wrapped it all together nicely. Look at that, well done, well done Martina,
Martina:
Goodbye.
Andy & Chris:
that was slick. Like a cashmere cod piece, that was a slick and a smooth.
Martina:
Yeah
Andy & Chris:
Martina, we’ll let you carry on with your busy world and your busy life and your practice, but thank you so much for your time today. Yeah, thanks very much. It’s been brilliant, and we
Martina:
Thank
Andy & Chris:
wish
Martina:
you
Andy & Chris:
you
Martina:
for having me.
Andy & Chris:
all the very best with your continued
Martina:
Thank
Andy & Chris:
success.
Martina:
you.
Andy & Chris:
You’ve
Martina:
Thank
Andy & Chris:
achieved
Martina:
you.
Andy & Chris:
so much and you’ve got so much more time in the profession to do more. So now we wish you the very
Martina:
I’m
Andy & Chris:
best
Martina:
tired
Andy & Chris:
for that.
Martina:
now.
Andy & Chris:
There
Martina:
I mean, it’s nice. I don’t know.
Andy & Chris:
you go, you can climb off the therapy couch and go and have a lay down. Yeah, that’s right,
Martina:
What?
Andy & Chris:
until the next time. Excellent, look after yourself Martina, keep well. Thank you.
Martina:
Thank you.
Andy & Chris:
That was brilliant. Thank you very much indeed.
