Dentology Podcast with Nipun Kathuria

Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Nipun Kathuria

Episode Release Date – Monday 25 November 2024

Andy & Chris (00:02.306)
Monday morning, it’s exciting time to introduce another guest. seven o’clock in the morning. I need a coffee. Yeah, I think people might know that we called him at seven o’clock in the morning. he’s the cat out That’s secret. damn. He’s out the cat out the bag now. So today, we’re very fortunate, we have a CEO and founder, or co-founder joining us. We have Nipun Kathuria joining us, who’s the co-founder and CEO of Smile Genius Dental.

which is a clear aligner case management portal. Hello Nippon, how are you doing? Welcome.

Nipun Kathuria (00:36.918)
Hi guys, thanks for inviting me to the podcast. I’m good. How are you guys doing?

Andy & Chris (00:41.186)
Yeah, we’re brilliant. We’re brilliant. I’m having a cracking day today, actually. It’s a very good day. It’s a very good day. it’s a funny thing, isn’t it, on when people say, how’s your day going? I genuinely believe when we wake up in the morning, we decide. We decide what sort of day we’re going to have. And if we wake up and go, it’s going to be good and I’m going to find good things, I’m going to enjoy it, you are much more likely to enjoy it. If you roll out of bed with a grumpy face and a grumpy attitude.

I guess we know where that day is going to end up. I think the most brilliant thing is when someone asks you that question, you actually say, it’s really good. They’re so surprised. They’re taken aback. they’re like, really? Because most people go, it’s OK. Positivity.

Nipun Kathuria (01:19.114)
My answer is it’s the best day of my life today. So it’s going good. But I do agree to that, Ali, I think what you’re saying, right? it kind of, the way you set the pace of the day, from your kind of what you’re telling your mind, how you want your day to be, it actually could work out in that way as well. So it’s kind of, if all of is grumpy, the day would come out to be…

Andy & Chris (01:22.688)
Yeah, look at that.

Nipun Kathuria (01:43.156)
not a great day for you, but if you have the right mindset. And it’s tough, and I know, it’s more of a discipline that you need to kind of…

Andy & Chris (01:49.166)
And that’s the thing, you’re right, because even if you don’t genuinely believe it, you can play tricks on your own mind. So if you say, it’s going to be good, and okay, you might be thinking it’s going to be crap. But if you keep saying it’s going to be good, and there’s going to be good things that can happen, and I don’t know what they are yet, but I’m going to go looking for them, you are going to have a better day. And it still might not be the best day of your life, which clearly is what you’re having today.

Nipun Kathuria (02:10.72)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (02:12.226)
and I hope that being on the podcast falls past of that. That’s kind of new from now. But I do… Push on through, Nippon, push on through, come on.

Nipun Kathuria (02:18.077)
It’s becoming a mindset podcast now, so it’s fine. But it’s a funny thing. I’m reading a book called Becoming Supernatural, which is from Dr. Joe Dispenser. I’m not sure whether you heard of him. He does a lot of study of, and I think it’s on the same concept about.

Andy & Chris (02:31.471)
Okay.

Nipun Kathuria (02:40.096)
you know, we can train our body. Our body doesn’t know the difference between the actual experience and what you create in your mind. And it’s very similar to if you’re depressed or you’re thinking of something, a worst case scenario, your body reacts in that way. And it’s similarly, you can, in the morning, if you can think that, my day would gonna be one of the best days, and you actually feel it, and you create those feelings and emotions, your body reacts in such a way that you will be full of energy and, you know, other things that will come out of it. And the day could actually be

better than other days where you’re not thinking in that direction. So that’s a good start of the podcast.

Andy & Chris (03:11.706)
Yeah, I’m fascinated. It’s written by Blake called dispenser dispenser. Yeah He’s dispensing knowledge Yeah, yeah, it’d be quite a bit. That’s what you should have called his book. Yeah, it becomes like John Green or something we can’t say So Nippon we’re not here to talk about dispensers. We’re here to talk about you as you are you’re our guest and you’re the star of the show so

Nipun Kathuria (03:18.668)
He’s indispensable.

Andy & Chris (03:38.49)
Can we roll back to the beginning and can you give us an insight to what your childhood was like, where you got brought up? Was it a village, a town, a city, parents, siblings? What was young life and nipping like?

Nipun Kathuria (03:51.22)
Yeah, sure. So I was born in India, originally from India, from northern part of India. And again, I think now people know a lot about India. So it’s kind of it’s quite vast. And, know, we say North India, South India. So I was born in a place called Dehradun, which was supposed to be I think there was a lot of British influence.

when we were part of the the British Raj, what we used to call it. So there’s a lot of it was very kind of the schools. There was a good level of English that was being spoken over there. So the huge influence of the British culture in the place where I was born. And and again, it’s it’s it’s a valley. It’s not a plain. It’s kind of, you know, surrounded by hills, the lower kind of fold of Himalayas and all that sort of beautiful place.

Andy & Chris (04:15.286)
Okay, bye.

Andy & Chris (04:35.926)
to say it must be going to the Himalayas bit by the sounds of things.

Nipun Kathuria (04:38.258)
Yeah it’s on the lower fold of Himalayas which we call so they’re the lower and the middle and the upper with Mount Everest is and so we can see the Chinese border from our home you know can see the you know the the mountains and everything but that’s the place and so I was born there educated there yeah

Andy & Chris (04:42.787)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (04:50.97)
Wow.

Andy & Chris (04:55.492)
Can I just ask you a quick question, Nippon? And it’s sort of nothing to do with that. I always imagine if you can see the Himalayas and sort of like the amazingness of them, never been, but I’ve seen the pictures and stuff like that, even though you were born and lived there, when you see them, do you get used to them or do you always say, wow, that looks pretty stunning?

Nipun Kathuria (05:20.908)
I think the height and the altitude, know, the way, and these were lower Himalayas, right? So if you’re seeing it from far away, like I was looking at them from 35 kilometers away, right? So that’s the distance. I think you get used to it. You don’t realize other people kind of, they always plan to get there and it’s kind of at your doorstep. So you kind of, there is a lot of familiarity over there that every day you see it, you don’t, you you’re not vowed by it.

Andy & Chris (05:33.07)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (05:44.057)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (05:50.368)
But now when I go back, like during COVID time, I spent around four months back home and I was always vowed when I was looking at, know, kind of thinking that I’m fortunate and I did not realize that when I was, you know, a kid over there, you know, it was just used to, and we never looked at, I wasn’t very much into the natural, the nature side of things. It was more about, you know, like I want to go and play cricket. That was my only thing and not, yeah.

Andy & Chris (05:58.776)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (06:04.888)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (06:10.166)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (06:13.818)
But I think that’s life, isn’t it? I think sometimes the things that are on our doorstep, we don’t fully appreciate. And sometimes a little separation of time and you then go back to it and you realize just how beautiful and wonderful it is. Sorry, I interrupted. just thought it was, you know, I always think to myself that would be fascinating and whether you sort of get used to it after a while. Anyway, sorry.

Nipun Kathuria (06:27.178)
Yeah, yeah. No, no, it’s a good.

Nipun Kathuria (06:34.292)
It’s fascinating and I think just one thing to add, the mountains look blue from far away. They don’t look brown or dark color. And you know, because of the hazy kind of and some pollution. But again, that’s, you know, when they look blue, they look really good from far away. And and COVID had that, you know, it added that clarity because no one was driving. There’s no pollution in the air. So it was very, very clear view. So Bonin brought up over there, did really good schooling.

Andy & Chris (06:40.088)
Wow.

Andy & Chris (06:44.387)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (06:50.564)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (06:56.141)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (06:59.896)
Yep.

Nipun Kathuria (07:03.316)
And you know, from there on, I was thinking, you what should I be doing? And obviously, as you know, like most of the Indians would either choose engineering or they want to become a doctor. And I chose engineering because I hated biology, which is contrary to what I’m doing today. But.

Andy & Chris (07:17.466)
There’s an irony there, isn’t there?

Nipun Kathuria (07:24.3)
So yeah, I think engineering was something that I said, you know, let’s let’s jump into that. So I did software engineering. I went to south of India, a place near Bangalore, started there, started working over there in a software company, didn’t like it, didn’t like to code, which is also contrary to what I’m doing because I’m running a software company. So again, there were two contradictions in my life and how kind of you can call it destiny or you can call it whatever it kind of aligns to

both things that I’m doing today. I go for engineering, work for five years. Going into engineering was something that was more of a social pressure in terms of, everyone is doing the parents expected to do something good with your life. Now, my parents were not engineers themselves, so they didn’t know what engineering was. And it was just all my friends were doing it. So you went there and after five years, again, that was a long time, I realized that I should be

I want to understand the business behind these companies that are running those softwares and engineering side of things. And that’s where I decided I should be doing something to do with business or management. And India is very competitive when it comes to any good quality colleges or university. So it would be like one in 10,000 people would be getting a seat, a good quality seat in a good quality college.

And I said, you know, let’s let’s see something outside of India. And I had few choices because I wanted to go where, you know, in an English speaking country and not where my you know, I have to learn another language. And I didn’t know any like apart from English and my mother tongue Hindi, I didn’t know any other language. So my sister lived in UK. So that was choice number one. Ireland, I didn’t not many people at that time in India knew that Ireland was separate than you from UK.

Andy & Chris (09:00.634)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (09:21.258)
So yeah, Ireland is something that I think now people, now there’s so many students coming in, but at that time it was, yeah, Ireland, I’ve heard of them. they have a cricket team. Okay, let me look at how far it is from UK. So, you know, that’s the kind of low level geography we were living in. And yeah, in US and Australia and US was super expensive. UK was a bit expensive. Ireland kind of the, in terms of the tuition fee and one year MBA.

Andy & Chris (09:21.348)
really?

Andy & Chris (09:33.402)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (09:50.116)
And that’s where it was closer to my sister who lived in London. So I think that’s where I decided I should come to Ireland.

Andy & Chris (09:56.986)
And you did your MBA at College.

Nipun Kathuria (10:01.492)
Yeah, so I did my MBA in Dublin. Again, MBAs, at that time it was a very sought after masters. And I said, yeah, let’s do something. And MBA was something that Trinity was offering, which was one year. I got some scholarship to study there. Ireland had a one year post study work visa. And I think UK, because of some immigration, they had changed it to two months post study. So just imagine you’re spending 30,000 pounds on a master’s degree.

and you get only two months to find a job, like rarely happens. So that’s why I choose Ireland over UK at that time.

Andy & Chris (10:36.33)
And what was that transition like for you? Because you describe a very idyllic being brought up at the foothills of the Himalayas. So you leave your family, you go to a different country, new continent, different culture. How was that for the young Nippon? Because that’s quite an upheaval, that’s quite a shift.

Nipun Kathuria (10:58.932)
It’s quite a shift and I think I left home when I was 18. So in India as well, like when you go from the northern part of India where I was born to southern part where I was working and where I graduated as an engineer, it was a culture shock for me then as well because, you know, South is nowhere closer to how North India is. There’s different language, different kind of, you know, culture wise, food is different. It’s not an hour away by flight. And, know, we did not know.

Andy & Chris (11:14.926)
Ha, right.

Andy & Chris (11:21.764)
Mm.

Nipun Kathuria (11:28.832)
when we were students, didn’t spend too much on travel as well. So there was already that, I was already in that transition mode in my graduation side of things. But then I think choosing to come outside of India was something that I think I took very lightly. I didn’t think too much about that and any struggles which I encountered later on. Culturally, I think, so it was my first time as a context coming outside of India and working for a long time.

Andy & Chris (11:45.242)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (11:54.382)
When was this? When abouts was this? Right.

Nipun Kathuria (11:55.788)
It was 2011 when I joined and 2012 when I graduated from Trinity College. again, it was a one year course. it was at that time, was still the economies were bottoming out from recession of 2008. 2012 was the worst kind of year and then it started climbing up from there in terms of pricing and everything. So I came to Ireland, now, India at that time, think it was we were 1.1 billion whatever population, but in general, you don’t count the population around you, but.

Andy & Chris (12:24.685)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (12:25.069)
It’s a busy metro city where I was living. I come to Ireland and the first shock was it was a month of September. It was raining, cold. It was like, think today when we are speaking, it’s mild in UK and Ireland. In Ireland.

Andy & Chris (12:37.85)
Nip, nip, nip, nip, nip, nip, nip, nip,

Nipun Kathuria (12:45.804)
Ha ha ha!

Nipun Kathuria (12:50.444)
But it was, see again, it was a bit of shock there, right? This is like day one, okay? And then you were spending on hotel because at that time the internet was there, but again, I was traveling, I did not have a SIM card from Ireland. So again, those were kind of logistical issues which were causing more pain than a cultural issue. So I think it was just by the time we got a house, there was no WhatsApp, there was no, you know, kind of, you do not have roaming kind of data on your phone.

It wasn’t that common. I used to get those, calling cards where I used to go to a booth and call India and, know, just talk.

Andy & Chris (13:23.834)
Wow.

But it’s interesting what you say about the limited knowledge of geography and people thinking that Ireland might be connected to the British Isles. And equally, I think, from our position, understanding the geography of India and just appreciating how big India is. And you were saying it was quite a cultural difference for you going from the north of India to the south. And fairly recently, we’ve got to know Abhi Krishna quite well, the CEO founder of Care Snake, and he’s from the Kerala.

district down in the south and he talks a lot about how it’s quite a spirited region and there’s quite a lot of creativity and he always describes that region of India as being very different to the rest of India. So it’s interesting hearing you describe how culturally the shift from going from the north of India to the south almost felt as big as going from south of India over to Ireland. And I don’t know why it surprises really because you think you know the people from

Manchester, they speak in a different way. their foods are different. differently. That’s only 200 miles, something like that. Whereas this bad, really. Yeah. Most important question, though, do you drink?

Nipun Kathuria (14:37.644)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (14:41.272)
I used to and since two months I’m saying I’m not drinking. I don’t say that I’ve left drinking. I say that I don’t drink. That’s my answer. If someone asked me that question. I enjoy it. Now I drink Guinness Zero if I drink in that way, if you’re asking me the question. So the good thing is that in Ireland, now every pub has this non-alcoholic, you know, they serve those. Yeah, it’s the best. I think.

Andy & Chris (14:42.88)
so did you test?

Andy & Chris (14:49.627)
So did you enjoy the Guinness? That’s the most important question.

Andy & Chris (14:56.071)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (15:02.426)
Dublin Guinness is the best Guinness they’d say. When we’d been there a bit, we used to work for an Irish bank and it did taste different, there’s no doubt about it. So when you first arrived in Ireland, what did you do in terms of gaining work experience? Did you have a variety of jobs to see through when you first arrived?

Nipun Kathuria (15:10.314)
nice, yeah. It does taste different.

Nipun Kathuria (15:23.606)
So I wasn’t working at that time. again, if you think of the Indian students who are coming in, in general in India as well, they don’t work part-time, which is very culturally different to what you will see over here. Now, so our kind of education and our living expenses are kind of paid by our parents or student loans, whatever the case may be. And people are so much focused on studies and getting good grades.

that they think that working part-time would kind of distract them from their studies and those extra hours could be put in to get higher, higher rank or so. So when I came in, I knew it was an 11 months or 12 months program. I said, let’s focus on, and MBA is tough, MBA is very tough. So we were kind of 15, 16 hours, like classes and then so many assignments. I knew that I wouldn’t have time to work part-time. So.

Andy & Chris (16:07.726)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (16:18.996)
Again, I took a sabbatical from my previous employer, and then I came in and at that time I was just studying and just focusing on getting a job after I graduate. So at that time I wasn’t working, but when I was closer to the graduation, I knew that obviously I have to get a job, no matter if I have a sabbatical and an employer that I can go back to. So I was just looking at what are the options. And again, at that time the market was still very, very not great at hiring.

Andy & Chris (16:36.154)
Thank you.

Andy & Chris (16:48.648)
Hmm.

Nipun Kathuria (16:49.073)
They’re not many Indians. They were not many Indians in Ireland.

Andy & Chris (16:51.307)
I was going to ask were there many overseas students in Dublin? I can’t imagine they were a huge number. Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (16:56.396)
Not many unlike now you will see like Ireland is becoming mini UK now right in terms of the international You know students that you’re seeing in So at that time there were not many if it’s walking in city center, right? It’s a ray like I used to get excited if I see another Indian or you know, someone waiting a turban yeah. I saw him three months ago. It’s the same. Yeah, that’s the same person So, you know that was the low volume of Indians that were coming in and now it’s kind of

Andy & Chris (17:03.758)
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (17:13.454)
Bye.

Ha ha ha ha.

Would you rush up and hug them? know, as you go, and find you completely hated them just because they happen to be from India. It doesn’t mean you’ve got that commonality, does it? It’s weird, isn’t it?

Nipun Kathuria (17:27.018)
Yeah, yeah.

But that was the thing. But YouTube used to enjoy seeing fellow Indians in city center. So again, that’s where, when I came over here and now it’s changed quite a bit. And now there a lot of international students and people who are kind of…

Andy & Chris (17:49.466)
It’s not long, it? You know, what was that? 2011, 2012. You know, what are we? 12 years. 12 years. You know, it’s amazing that that change in those 12 years, the sense of it.

Nipun Kathuria (17:53.174)
Yeah, yeah, it’s 12 years. Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (17:59.212)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it’s partially it’s because UK put a lid on students coming in, finding jobs. So that overflow, think Ireland took advantage of that and they opened up. they increased from one year post study work visa to two years. So, you know, people chose Ireland over UK just because of that reason.

Andy & Chris (18:05.176)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (18:18.584)
Yeah. But also Nipun, I think there would be people like you who would have been a relatively early trailblazer coming over and studying. You’d have fed back to friends and family in India. It’s worked well. It’s been good for me. Great opportunities. It’s kind in terms of the environment they’re creating for you. That in turn would bring people over. So I think kind of when anything matures 12 years on, it’s always easiest to say, yeah, that was a direction of travel, but it does require

people like you and others to come over and try it early on to see what it’s like. from that, we get a richer resource of people coming in from all different countries, which is good for the economy.

Nipun Kathuria (18:59.862)
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, that’s true. And that’s why you see so many Irish in America. There’s a funny thing, which was very, like you don’t hear those stories that often. I think the population of Ireland would be, I think it’s around 5.5 million, five-ish, let’s take 5 million. And again, don’t quote me on the stats, but there are 30 to 40 million Irish living overseas, not in Ireland. So just imagine 5 million Irish, but 10 times, eight to 10 times are living abroad.

Andy & Chris (19:05.518)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (19:28.442)
yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (19:29.029)
And it’s just because of the famine and other kind of historical fact, you people did migrate to other countries. And that’s funny.

Andy & Chris (19:36.13)
Yeah, yeah. So you were working in software coding, but obviously interested in that. You came and did your MBA in Ireland. What was the stepping stone into dentistry? How did that come about?

Nipun Kathuria (19:50.986)
Yeah, so obviously he wasn’t thinking about dentistry, he still hated biology, right? So I wasn’t into… I was a science student, said, know, yeah, so biology is not for me. I was, my girlfriend at that time, who was my wife, she was a dentist. So that’s how my introduction to the beautiful world of dentistry happened. I was still kind of, she was still in India. So this is like 2012 when I’m graduating. I got married in 20…

Andy & Chris (19:54.968)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (20:08.184)
I don’t

Nipun Kathuria (20:21.909)
She joined me over here and that’s where I was introduced to dentistry in India versus in Ireland. What are the, know, kind of all the kind of things that are needed on the getting a license, you know, the compliance and that’s where I was introduced to the clear aligners and the orthodontic side of dentistry as well.

Andy & Chris (20:28.89)
Okay, bye.

Andy & Chris (20:34.852)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (20:40.29)
Right, okay. okay. Is it easier to get, because I know sometimes the Indian guy, well the Indian dentist when they come to the UK, it can be real pain to, you know, try and, is it the same as in Ireland? Is it sort of like, she have to go, or did she have to go through the same sort of hoops really?

Nipun Kathuria (20:50.721)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s the same. It’s the same. Yeah, it’s the same. It’s tougher in Ireland. So I was talking to someone just now. So usually when it comes to tech, when it comes to anything, you will see that Ireland is looking at what UK does. UK is looking at what US does. And that’s the chain, right? So Ireland, think on annually, they are way behind. So there are only three dental colleges in Ireland. One is in Dublin.

One is in Cork, one is in, again, Ireland of Ireland, one is in Belfast, Queens, right? They’re opening fourth one, RCSI is opening a fourth college. So again, they’re very kind of few colleges, and everything else in terms of dental counsel, how many international students, it’s very, now they are improving now, but it’s way worse than UK. Now UK has still improved GDC, they have reduced the barriers for international students, but yeah, they make it very tough, they make it very tough.

Andy & Chris (21:24.43)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (21:41.167)
Right.

Nipun Kathuria (21:49.856)
I think lawyers and doctors, those are the two professions which they don’t enjoy joining their spouses being in that professions where they have to, others just get the job. Like no one asks me any license, give me your software engineering license. There is nothing a license called, nothing for business. But when it comes to legal and doctors, I think they are in that crossroads of, should we get a license? And then they either,

Andy & Chris (21:58.379)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (22:05.876)
Yeah,

Nipun Kathuria (22:15.924)
If you are from Canada or Australia or some of the European countries, you do get recognized. But if the country doesn’t have any bilateral relationship with that country, you have to go through the examination route, which is not easy, which is, I’ve seen my wife like firsthand, like, you know, going through that. It’s physically and mentally very stressful to get a license in UK or Ireland.

Andy & Chris (22:37.494)
Yeah, yeah, it is definitely so you sort of stumble yourself into the world of clear aligners through Having a spouse who’s a who’s a straight teeth. Let’s up a software company. Yeah And the thing is that in the kind of world of clear aligners, I see this kind of three main parties to it. There’s a patient there’s the clinician stroke dental practice and then there’s the lab and

Nipun Kathuria (22:47.914)
haha

Andy & Chris (23:01.764)
There’s a dreadful pun coming here, they all need to be aligned. They all need to work together. They need to be aligned clearly. Clearly they do. In your experience, is there a weak link at the moment? Are all those parties moving in the same direction and at the same speed? Are we getting good progress there, or is there one part of that process that needs a bit of a kick?

Nipun Kathuria (23:06.678)
Yep, yep. Good one.

Nipun Kathuria (23:27.942)
I think in general

Andy & Chris (23:28.92)
That management take the end.

Nipun Kathuria (23:32.264)
In general, think in dentistry, if you look at the way how I see it is that dentistry is behind medical in general in terms of technological advancements, right? So how often do you hear about billion dollar companies in dental coming out and you hear them or they got listed in S &P or NASDAQ or whatever? Rarely, right? I think the only one that we know is dental monitoring, which is doing quite well. Apart from that, yes, Align was there, but again, they were a manufacturer.

Andy & Chris (23:50.306)
Yeah, yeah, very true.

Mm.

Nipun Kathuria (24:00.432)
not on the software side of things or the process side of things, but when it comes to medical or let’s say retail, finance, fintech, you you do hear so many companies. So dental had been the laggard in terms of in the industry, when you compare different industries and within medical as well. And I think that’s where people don’t look to innovate that much in dentistry. Now, the only innovation that has happened is around hardware as you know, the scanners, the printers.

Andy & Chris (24:14.063)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (24:22.999)
Mm.

Nipun Kathuria (24:28.886)
But when it comes to software where the rest of the market does a lot more dentistry, you wouldn’t hear much of software kind of progress happening. And I think that’s where we identified that as a gap. And again, because my…

Andy & Chris (24:38.007)
Mm-hmm.

Why do you think that is Nippon? Is there a reason for that?

Nipun Kathuria (24:44.914)
I, again, I’m not the, I ask a lot of my colleagues and other people that I talk to, they know why, who are more experienced in dentistry than me, right? So my knowledge is very limited because of obviously I hadn’t been a dentist and I’m not a dentist. So usually it’s kind of, they say that it’s a very capital intensive kind of practice, right? So there’s a lot of capital that’s needed. And most of that goes into the hiring, most of that going into the hardware side of things.

Software becomes an afterthought for these people. And then there are a lot of regulations. Who is holding the data? Where is your data? are compliance? think regulation, bureaucracy and all that, that slows down. And I think a lot of startups do not want to get into medical dentistry because of all those checks and kind of fear factor that has been created around dentistry, in general medical as well. But medical, think there has been more kind of pumped up in terms of capital and venture capital money.

Andy & Chris (25:20.256)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (25:30.937)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (25:34.392)
But.

Nipun Kathuria (25:44.018)
Dental, like in Ireland, like when I speak to people, they ask me, why are you doing something in dentistry? Why not something else? That’s the reaction that you get from investors and other people, which tells you the mindset is, dentistry is just a dentist who’s looking at a patient and extracting tooth. That’s it. So think that’s a mindset issue which impacted the investments. And that’s why you don’t see a lot of companies coming out from dentistry.

Andy & Chris (25:44.44)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (25:59.182)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (26:08.057)
And who do you see at the forefront of this market? There’s obviously a line and the work they’ve done in raising the overall profile of clear aligners through their product Invisalign. I think that’s been amazing for everybody because it’s elevated the understanding and the appreciation of it.

and they’ve almost become like, yeah, people don’t use vacuum cleaners, they use a Hoover. And people ask for a visit line. But are other players in this market who are really at the forefront of what’s being achieved or what can be done?

Nipun Kathuria (26:39.616)
Yeah, so I think, as you mentioned, obviously, Align Tech, I think they did it really well. One of the strategies that worked really well for them was the direct-to-consumer marketing, not the product, but the marketing side of things. And I think the product stood up to that, and that’s why they demand a premium when someone is going through Align and Treatments. Apart from that, I would say dental monitoring is someone that we look up to.

Andy & Chris (26:57.903)
Yep.

Nipun Kathuria (27:06.048)
Although we do compete with them in some fact kind of portion of the product that we do have Which is a good thing for us if someone is comparing us to dental monitoring, which is not the case by the way That’s what we say but you know people do compare and I think they did it really well and Align is different because they are we like this is internally within our company. We see Invisalign or Align tech as Apple Because they have hardware they have software they have coupled everything within them

So you shouldn’t leave their ecosystem. But other companies are not the Apple. And I think that’s where our focus is more on the Androids of the world, know, which whom we can help. Not everyone can afford an iPhone, right? People are there for buying Samsungs and other phones as well.

Andy & Chris (27:49.219)
Yep.

Hmm, so… VHS and Peter Max. Yeah, yeah. So your services, I assume that you must have great relationships with Labs then. They’re a key stakeholder in how you operate. And are you limited to where you operate or can you support people with your services regardless of their location?

Nipun Kathuria (28:03.392)
Yes.

Nipun Kathuria (28:14.604)
So it’s a cloud-based software. So what we have is we have two parts of the product. So one is a case management platform and the other one is a remote tracking app. We call it remote monitoring, but it’s actually a remote tracking app. And again, that kind of combines everything into one single view of the case. It’s cloud-based, so it’s independent of geography. So unlike a lot of PMS systems that you will see, which are client-server based still, it’s independent. So we have clients in Dubai, we have clients in India.

Andy & Chris (28:35.641)
Mm-hmm.

Nipun Kathuria (28:44.964)
UK, Ireland, of course. We are doing the pilot in San Francisco. So again, point being that it’s independent and we can, obviously there are similarities, but also dissimilarities, the way dentistry is practiced in every, each and every of, you know, different geographies.

Andy & Chris (28:45.185)
I’m a

Andy & Chris (28:57.282)
Hmm. Yeah, that could be quite interesting to try and match it to all the different markets.

Nipun Kathuria (29:03.884)
But I think that has helped us to evolve, know, those, those cultural, like clinically cultural nuances has helped us improve our product as well. One of the examples that, funny example that I’ll share with you is, so we see, and I think the dentistry that you see around you, I think most of the people think that is the way dentistry should be done. And that’s true for the Western countries. But like in India, people don’t have a PMS system. Okay, so.

Andy & Chris (29:10.402)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (29:32.81)
because there is lack of rules there in terms of compliance. Yes, they keep records, but they’re not mandated to keep software or digital products. So if we are selling a product that sits on top of your PMS system, but they don’t have a PMS system in that geography, it’s very different, you know, culturally. So we have to adapt to that. So a lot of dentists in Middle East, they use WhatsApp to talk to their patients. Labs use WhatsApp to discuss cases with the clinics.

Andy & Chris (29:52.41)
Hmm.

Nipun Kathuria (30:00.544)
they use Google Sheets, they use Google Drives. Now, that is a level of kind of siloed platforms and in Ireland or UK, if you say that, can you talk to your patient over WhatsApp? Like, no, people will say, no, why should I share my phone number with the patient? So, those are the different in terms of culturally, but it’s different. But at the end of the day, think clear aligners and ortholonic treatments, I think everyone, there’s a kind of wave of new patients.

Andy & Chris (30:18.039)
Interesting.

Nipun Kathuria (30:30.07)
who have now heard of clear aligners who are looking to get theirs aligners done as well, which is a common factor tying all these things, no matter what culturally difference there are.

Andy & Chris (30:32.44)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (30:39.064)
So I imagine you must see quite different demands on your system by jurisdiction. So in India, they focus on one element of it. In the UK, they focus on another. So I guess I imagine in terms of developing a software that is attractive to people, regardless of where you’re based is quite challenging because I imagine there’s elements of your service which

The people in the UK never go anywhere near. people in India couldn’t live without it.

Nipun Kathuria (31:07.756)
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s true. And I think there’s a lot of similarity. Now, that was my expectation, but I think there are subtle differences, we would say. But I think overall, it’s 80 % of the product would be universal that people want to use and the way they are using it. So for example, remote monitoring is quite prevalent in Middle East and in India as well. Now, they’re pushing it hard for remote monitoring because the patients don’t want to sit. Now, there isn’t like,

Andy & Chris (31:21.974)
Right.

Nipun Kathuria (31:37.204)
very few clinics in Middle East or in India would have proper appointment system. So, you they want the patients, they will give you, you know, I’ll see you at 11, but actually you will be seen at 1 p.m. So, the joke around there is that the doctors want to see patients, like waiting, because that gives an impression to other patients that this doctor is very popular because everyone is waiting for them.

Andy & Chris (31:58.97)
They’re in demand.

Nipun Kathuria (32:00.69)
So, know, it’s kind of remote monitoring has become picked up quite a lot in Middle East and in India as well. Whereas over here, you know, patients do want to see the doctor in between, they are okay to do, you know, remote tracking, but eventually they want to see your doctor as well. So again, I think there’s, terms of the usage of the product, it could vary that way. But overall, I think it’s the adoption of technology, which is slightly slower when it comes to…

Andy & Chris (32:16.783)
Hmm.

Nipun Kathuria (32:28.96)
those non-Western countries, because there is no regulation, there is no kind of compliance for them to have those records all the time. So that’s where they’re not pushed to adopt these new, yeah.

Andy & Chris (32:40.122)
It’s nuts, isn’t it? Yeah, crazy. It’s unusual. It’s like the Wild West. And I guess we’re in phase where as consumers, we’re getting more used to using technology and innovative solutions. And I think dental practices are getting there. We have services like yours, but the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle is the lab. And where does the lab sit in this? Because on the whole, don’t think labs are particularly good at marketing themselves.

or their services, just because it’s quite an old industry. Many people are still using quite old technology. investing. Yeah. Sometimes not keen to invest. And there’s some really cool digital labs coming up and the tech they’ve got access to. But are those very modern digital labs the outlier? And there’s still a lot of labs that haven’t quite caught up with what the modern tech world looks like.

do you have a role to play in effectively acting as their interface and presenting them? Because I just don’t think their marketing generally is that great.

Nipun Kathuria (33:43.808)
Yeah, no, I think that’s absolutely right. So if you look at labs, obviously like the labs, lab as a business is very lucrative if run correctly and efficiently. Labs need a lot of investment, CAPEX in terms of machinery, printers, know, scanners and everything. So the capital, it’s not as, it’s a manufacturing business more or less rather than a service business. And so it’s very much capital intensive there. And…

Andy & Chris (34:06.426)
Hmm.

sense.

Nipun Kathuria (34:12.512)
These are being operated by the lab owners who happen to be the business owners who are running a business now, but they’re lab technicians by profession. They don’t know much about marketing business strategies. It’s a learned skill. And the other side is the expectation from the lab. The labs are underappreciated, which is within the community as well. Like how often, like we talked about dental companies and dental softwares.

Andy & Chris (34:26.052)
Yep.

Andy & Chris (34:35.537)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (34:40.95)
How many times have you heard of lab software company who’s focusing purely on improving the lives of lab technicians or labs, right? Rarely. But then if you think of the supply chain, they feed so much to the dentists because if you think of clear aligners, again, that’s the area where we are. The outcome of the case, no matter whether you’re going to Invisalign, Spark or any other labs locally in your country, everyone is using the same printers, let’s say carbon 3D printers.

They’re using the same material. The staff has been rotating across different labs. So I was working at Invisalign, but now I’m working with XYZ Lab in your region. The quality of the outcome is the quality of the treatment plan that the dentist signs off on. That feeds into the 3D printer that prints those aligners which you wear and that decides how your teeth would shift, right? And again,

all the factors have been the same. So it’s the actual, the labs that are doing, the people behind those labs. And if you don’t appreciate them, if you don’t invest in them, if these people are not appreciated by the dentist, obviously that impacts the work of these labs as well. But there’s a huge opportunity that’s there with the labs to upsell, to provide more services to their clinicians. But we do see a lot of consolidation happening within the lab side as well.

Andy & Chris (35:50.106)
Thank you.

Nipun Kathuria (36:04.812)
and a lot of lab owners who are selling labs to, you know, the, you know, the chain of labs or the groups or the DSOs as well, because I think it feels that they’re underappreciated. They’re not seeing that much growth. Dentists do not want to pay as much as the lab wants to get from them. And I think there is a bargain kind of they don’t feel that they have that leverage in the market. But if they want to be digitally advanced, which is why we come in, we can offer them that solution that optimizes their services.

Andy & Chris (36:11.331)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (36:26.806)
Right.

Andy & Chris (36:31.353)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (36:34.72)
like makes them spend less on the resources. So there’s more kind of, it makes them more profitable. Also, they can have more marketing and branding impacts and grow their businesses as well, having their own branding. So if someone is competing with Invisalign, one of the things that you will hear that, you we don’t have a branding, we don’t have this, we don’t have that. We provide them with a white label case management and patient monitoring. So they stand at par with Invisalign because everything else was the same, which we discussed. It’s the experience that you’re providing.

Andy & Chris (36:34.842)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (36:38.362)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (36:52.484)
Okay.

Nipun Kathuria (37:03.882)
to your people. Yeah. Correct, correct. So we white-labeled that. And let’s say, for example, if you see any of the labs in UK, we work with quite a few labs, so everything is white-labeled for them. It’s powered by SmileGenius. So we enable them to kind of come at power when it comes to experience, be it physical or digital. Digital is what we have our expertise in. So again, these are some of the options where the labs can…

Andy & Chris (37:04.692)
So you might label that for the lab, so that becomes a lab service.

Andy & Chris (37:16.409)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (37:26.861)
about you.

Nipun Kathuria (37:33.068)
improve. There was a magazine and I was reading the Dentistry magazine and reading about there’s been decline in the number of lab technicians. Year over year decline, which is not great. So I think some of these things would help kind of improve the lab business overall and in general because where would the dentist go? Where would they order? They can’t print everything in the clinic. They don’t have time to do even small tasks. So again, that’s where I would say we can come in.

Andy & Chris (37:44.081)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (37:51.085)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (38:00.928)
No. And also when, yeah, we also spend a lot of time talking to dentists. And I was with the dentist earlier on this week who’s in central London. And he talks with the utmost respect of his lab technician and his lab technician for special cases will come and visit him for the patient consultation and they’ll design, you know, what elements they’re going to use and, yeah, mate, try to get the color matching right and are they using the right products. And it really is a collaborative approach. So I think

at the very best end, the dentist and the lab technician work really closely together. I guess for the most part, like quite a lot of the work produced is reasonably kind of it cheap. It’s kind of generic off the shelf type stuff. And I guess it’s where do you sit? Where do you sit in the market? Isn’t it? But I guess the wrapper to all of this is making sure that you are engaging with technology and you’re offering solutions that keep you in the game and help them get remunerated properly or that they earn better money.

Yeah. Interesting. Nippon, you’ve, I mean, you’re an interesting guy and you’ve got a really interesting business. So if we kind of zoom out a little bit and look at yourself, what would you say is the key takeaway that you’ve got from your entrepreneurial journey? What’s the thing that you think has been the most valuable thing you’ve learned?

Nipun Kathuria (39:20.992)
I think when I look at the journey, I think it’s the experience. It’s the fun. I see entrepreneurship as, you know, we used to play video games, right? So it’s the video game that you’re playing for the first time. Again, I’m not a serial entrepreneur. I’ve done a few things, but again, like I haven’t come that far where I’m with the company now, but it’s like playing the video game for the first time, right? And you are kind of learning, enjoying it.

you don’t know what’s coming next. Your friends might have told something, I played that and you know, on stage number five, will see, you’ll meet these many, whatever, a ghost or whatever. So I think that’s how I see it. So for me, entrepreneurship is more like learning more of a video game approach. Yes, and that’s why you see people who play it all the time, they have very much expertise in playing that game all the time. They can anticipate what’s coming next. And that’s what make entrepreneurs really good.

doing it over and over again. But I think one of the things that I’ve learned, which I practice, it’s a learned thing, is managing fear. And I think every day it’s all about, there are tons of things that could be happening every day. And I think how do you manage that, how you overcome that fear, but still do it. And I think that’s where it could be, and it could be a downward spiral if you let that fear overtake you.

Andy & Chris (40:21.241)
Right.

Nipun Kathuria (40:39.818)
Like it could be finance, it could be talking to clients, it could be product, team, investors, office, know, anything. Compliance checks. So I think there’s a lot of things that are happening all the time. And I how do you manage that and, you know, take one day at a time, right? And then that’s where, so in the evening, when I’m done, I’m done. So I think that’s where I kind of reset that clock for the next day so that I come back fully energized.

Andy & Chris (40:40.03)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (40:56.687)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (41:00.291)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (41:07.066)
Good. Interesting. When you say managing fear, that mean you go looking for things that scare you? don’t mean like, you know, looking under the sofa for a spider. mean, in business, do you seek out the hard problems to solve and then deal with them? Or do you more mean if there’s fearful things that just happen to occur, it’s having a process in the system, knowing how to manage that? Being fearful, yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (41:35.722)
Yeah, I think I don’t look for things, you know, in that way, but usually because of the nature of the the role that I’m in.

Andy & Chris (41:44.632)
Yeah. That’s okay if they find you, if you go hunting for them. The fear finds you as opposed to you go hunting for Yeah, the other way around it’s like, Yeah. And I think you’re right. think when you’re leading a business, there is a funny knack that the problems do end up at your door. Always. Yeah, for guidance.

Nipun Kathuria (41:46.656)
they find me, right? the…

Nipun Kathuria (42:02.634)
Yeah, yeah, and I think everyone is looking up to you for answers. You said, this is my first time too. You know, I’m in the same boat as you, but I think it’s the leadership side of things that, and I think you guys know it, right? So people expect you to be positive, to, you know, command that, yeah.

Andy & Chris (42:09.217)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (42:17.508)
Surely you’ve got an answer. Just be positive even if you haven’t. I was going to say, if not, just bluff it out until you can the answer. Yeah, just take the high ground and be confident.

Nipun Kathuria (42:25.068)
Yeah. But I think what I’ve learned is, again, through all this process and other things is, you know, it’s, I think we make things more, like, bigger in terms of their importance than they actually are. And I think we anticipate the, know, like looking for results today, like, it’s like, I’ll give you an example, right? So we are in B2B software side of things. So the sales cycle for B2B is,

Andy & Chris (42:43.994)
That’s true.

Nipun Kathuria (42:53.836)
couple of months, right? Unlike B2C where you have an ad and people buy, you know, it’s a $10 thing, it’s not a $10 thing that we are selling. So there’s a relationship, but then that fear creeps up that, know, with that lab by our software, you they haven’t responded to my email. You know, those, that’s an example, an everyday example, and I think everyone sees that. And I think taking one day at a time, managing that fear, which I’m still learning, I would say, but I think that’s one of the biggest things that I’ve…

Andy & Chris (42:59.106)
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (43:10.755)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (43:14.394)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (43:22.878)
realized and I’m learning that things are not that big as we make them to be. And I think everything is okay at the end of the day. When the movie finishes, I think everyone would be happy.

Andy & Chris (43:25.102)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (43:29.581)
Mm-mm.

Andy & Chris (43:36.216)
No, I think that’s really good. Nippon, we always ask our guests the same two questions at the end of the episode. Yeah, just for the credits roll. And the first one we have for you is if you could be a fly on the wall in a situation, where would you be and who would be there? It’s going to be intriguing, this one.

Nipun Kathuria (43:54.508)
I have a very weird answer to that. And I was thinking of this question yesterday last night and I was saying, yeah, what should I be? I think I want to be a fly in White House. Okay, there’s a lot of things happening and it’s at the moment, right? And whenever I’m watching news, I don’t watch that it that much, but there’s a lot of things that US in general that defines how the world geopolitics would shape up.

Andy & Chris (44:06.714)
Okay. Well, at the moment.

Nipun Kathuria (44:23.658)
what they say and what they do is different. And there are a of back channels that are happening in Middle East, Israel, whatever you are seeing, geopolitics side of things. And I want to be that fly in the White House, actually knowing exactly what’s happening in the back channels. And you I’m very excited to know. I’m usually interested in the movies which are kind of war, politics, you those kinds of things. In reality, I would love to be there for a day to find out what’s happening and you know.

Andy & Chris (44:31.118)
Mm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (44:37.774)
Mmm

Andy & Chris (44:44.675)
Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (44:51.101)
how the teams manage it and what, whom they speak to. And on the public media, they would say, I’m not speaking to anyone, but actually they are speaking. Everyone has a person.

Andy & Chris (44:57.699)
is a back channel to it rather than a back channel. yeah, there will actually be conversations taking place. No, that’d be great. That’d be great. And if you could meet somebody Nippon and have a 0 % Guinness with somebody, who would you like the opportunity to sit down and meet? And a packet of Tato crisps.

Nipun Kathuria (45:11.232)
Ha

All right, I’ll choose someone who doesn’t drink. I’m a big fan of Tony Robbins. I’m not sure whether you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think everyone knows. So I’m a big fan. Yeah, yeah. So it’s been six, seven years since I’ve been following him. I’ve attended his a lot of events. Every morning. Sorry, Cole? Yeah, yeah, twice, twice.

Andy & Chris (45:31.418)
Have you walked over hot coals?

Nipun Kathuria (45:37.534)
It’s fantastic. it’s it’s this is again fear setting, right? So you think it’s it will burn your feet. It doesn’t mean nothing happens there. So the firework is an experience.

Andy & Chris (45:42.252)
Yeah. No. Yeah. We did it for charity, didn’t we? We did it for charity. did. We were like, OK. Yeah.

Nipun Kathuria (45:50.55)
With the firework, isn’t it? Okay, call me next time. I’ll be there. But Tony Robbins, would say, because I think meeting someone personally and the emotion of, and the memory of meeting them, you see them all the time, but I think that would be the one person that would love to meet over a cough zero kind of Guinness, because I know he doesn’t drink. He says he doesn’t drink. I’m assuming he doesn’t drink. So yeah, yeah, it’ll be Tony Robbins.

Andy & Chris (46:01.722)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (46:10.031)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (46:13.718)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (46:17.306)
No, no, I understand He’s quite a big guy, isn’t it? Yeah, there’s a He just picked you up. Yeah But it but it but it fits the man because he’s got a big presence isn’t she in a booming voice. So It’ll be something that we disappoint

Nipun Kathuria (46:23.402)
Yeah, he’s 6’7″. Like I’ll be like an ant in front of him.

Nipun Kathuria (46:45.804)
Yeah, he says that’s personal growth. think he was 5’4 and he became 6’7 in a year’s time. So he says that’s personal growth.

Andy & Chris (46:48.494)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, excellent. Nippon, thank you your time today. It’s been brilliant. It’s been really, really enjoyable. Like I say, I think your personal journey of how you’ve ended up where you are in terms of geography is great. And I think the work that you’re doing in dentistry, I think there’s a lot more to come, I think, over the next few years. We’re going to see some big shifts on the digital side. It sounds like you’re well placed for that. Yeah, brilliant.

Nipun Kathuria (46:58.934)
Thank you.

Nipun Kathuria (47:17.26)
Thanks guys for having me for the podcast. Really enjoyed it. And it was very casual, very interactive. Thank you so much. Cheers guys. Thank you. See you.

Andy & Chris (47:19.224)
Not at all. Not at all. Good. That’s it, Doreen. Keep well, Neffan.