Dentology Podcast with Pav Khaira

Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Pav Khaira

Episode Release Date – Monday 3 June 2024

Andy & Chris (00:01.998)
So we’re now upwards of 140 episodes, which is exciting. It is scary, isn’t it? 140, and they’ve all been brilliant. I obviously can’t remember all of 140, but it’s been a really good experience. I think what’s lovely is when we started this, we wanted to kind of create a body of work around the business of dentistry, because we felt there was a hole there. And when you look back through the catalog, the amount of topics we’ve covered off and the areas that we’ve got people to talk about.

It’s been quite remarkable. It has I was talking to someone the other day In fact, they said that they like the podcast because they felt it enabled our guests to talk about themselves And they also said we are the Anton deck of dental podcasts Really? Yeah, and they also said it’s quite interesting that anything they see we always stand we always stand on the sides

Yeah, you’re always on my left and I’m always on your right. To give people what they want, we should shut up and introduce ourselves. Indeed, indeed. Because that’s who they want to listen to. So today we’re delighted. We have Dr Pav Kyra joining us. And Pav is a dentist, specialist on the implant side of dentistry, which will be interesting. And also CEO of the Academy of Implant Excellence. Welcome Pav, how are you?

Pav (01:08.834)
Thank you very much. I’m very good. Thank you. I’m looking forward to this. I’ve listened to some of your podcasts as well. Yeah, they’re always entertaining to listen to. I’m excited.

Andy & Chris (01:14.918)
Dun dun dun. Ha ha ha. Well we’re very fortunate and I think when you kind of go back through the episodes, I think we contribute about 6%, 6, 7% of an overall episode. We don’t actually have much work to do. We kind of just listen, which is the best part. Yeah, it’s brilliant, yeah. Wind you up and off you go. Exactly. See what happens, yeah. Exactly. So we always tend to start because I think the thing that kind of draws.

people in are the stories about the people. You know, the things we do are interesting, but it’s always like, well, who is it? And we all do it ourselves. If we hear about a new business, or we’re trying to find out about something, quite often we’ll go to the about page and we’ll look at meet the team. And we want to kind of say, well, who are the people in that business? So to give our listeners a sense of kind of who you are, often there’s clues from our childhood in terms of the who.

It gives us a clue in terms of who we are today. So if you could start at birth, how’s it gone since then? So if you go back, is there a time in your childhood that you can look back on and say, that’s kind of a moment that led me to become the person I am today? Or what was your childhood like?

Pav (02:11.487)
My memory is pretty good but it’s not that good.

Pav (02:25.762)
You know, I was very blessed growing up. You know, I had very, very loving parents. They were strict, but you know what? Indian parents aren’t strict on the end of the day. And even growing up, I was given an option really where my dad was like, you know what? You can become a doctor or a dentist, pick one. And this was from like the age of eight. He was like, be a doctor or a dentist, you know, pick one. He was pushing me towards being a doctor. And so even I was…

I wouldn’t say I was pushed in that direction but I was definitely encouraged in that direction. For a long time I actually wanted to do medicine and one of the issues that I had was I wanted to do medicine more for my dad than for myself and it actually got to a point where I did work experience in a hospital. Guys it was the most boring thing, it was the most boring week of my life.

Andy & Chris (02:55.314)
Hmm.

Looks like frozen to me. Oh, he’s back. Oh, he’s gone again.

Andy & Chris (03:13.765)
Right.

Andy & Chris (03:24.388)
Really?

Pav (03:25.002)
I’ve never seen anything more boring. I don’t know whether it was a slow week or what but I was on different departments And it was very much a case of we’re not quite sure what’s going on. Let’s admit you for 24 hours We’re not quite sure what’s going on. Let’s admit you for 24 hours the only the only the only exciting couple of days were when I was an A&E and something happened which then

Andy & Chris (03:36.722)
Alright, okay.

Andy & Chris (03:42.902)
Is it A&E? Go on. Yeah.

Pav (03:48.754)
embarrassed me to the point where I was like, I can’t do medicine, I’m not going to do it, because I was so embarrassed from this. So what ended up happening is part way through A&E, and I was about 14 at the time, 15, this guy had come in and he’d had a huge laceration into his arm, like underneath his bicep, and it was bleeding very, very heavily. And the consultant said, this is going to be good, come with me and watch. And I was like, okay, cool.

Andy & Chris (04:15.777)
Lots of blood, come and watch it.

Pav (04:17.122)
Lots of blood wasn’t used to it and I went in and the consultant was like, okay, there’s a bleed here We need to try and figure out where it’s going from He was like gowning up putting on sterile gloves and I was watching with intent cuz at this time I was like Oh, you know, this is fantastic this and I was okay until the point he took his glove finger and put it underneath his bicep and his finger disappeared and What I remember is I remember like these twinkling lights and like this light

And then the next thing that I remember is looking up and having five nurses looking down at me holding my legs in the air because I passed out. And they were all in hysterics. They said to me, how are you going to be a doctor when you can’t even take this? And that was for me, that was at the age of 14, it was traumatic. And I was just I can’t do this. I can’t do medicine. And then for a couple of years after that, I really wasn’t too sure about what I wanted to do. I did have this period for about 18 months. I was like, I’m going to be a stuntman.

Andy & Chris (04:52.743)
Brilliant.

Brilliant.

Andy & Chris (05:08.666)
Wow.

Pav (05:13.898)
My mum was like, you’re not going to be a stuntman. But yes, I’m going to be a stuntman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I used to come home from school, go up the stairs, and then if mum called me to come downstairs, I’d jump out the window and come back in the back door. And it was just completely stupid stuff. Really, really, really stupid. Very random. I was adamant. I was like, I want to be a stuntman. I was absolutely adamant about it. Yes, yes.

Andy & Chris (05:15.202)
What? A stuntman? Yeah!

Andy & Chris (05:31.634)
That’s somewhat random, fam.

Andy & Chris (05:39.858)
It sounds like you were perhaps self-taught as well. I thought you were going to say you’d go upstairs and your mum would say dinner, so you’d throw yourself down the stairs and do that rolly thing. Get on the bottom. Oh, I’m here mum. But now you just jumped out of the window, even worse.

Pav (05:55.245)
I got told off once when I must have jumped out the window about five times within this place of about half an hour. Mum was like, pack it in, you’re gonna break your leg. Yeah, so that was just a silly notion really, but at the time it was, you know, when you’re young, it’s just like, yeah, this is what I want to do. But I think that phased out pretty quickly and I ended up between my A-level years.

Andy & Chris (06:01.434)
Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (06:10.192)
Yeah.

Pav (06:17.778)
I ended up going to a dental practice to do work experience there. And it was fantastic because everything was hands-on. And that’s when I decided this is what I wanted to do. Unfortunately, what had happened is I didn’t do modular A levels. It was like study for two years and do A levels at the end. And I didn’t do any work in the first year at all. My highest grade was a D minus in the first year.

Andy & Chris (06:30.824)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (06:46.147)
Ah, excellent.

Pav (06:47.322)
I needed to be predicted three Bs to get into, to get into dental school. Now it’s just like, you know, you need like seven A stars at A level to get into this. It’s just, it’s just insane. I don’t know. I don’t think I could do it now. And I went to my teachers and said, can you predict me three Bs? And they literally just laughed at me. And I said, look, predict me three Bs. I said, I will, I will, I will said, I will graft. I will work this all this year. I will not let you down. And they ended up.

Andy & Chris (06:49.618)
Hmm. Wow.

Andy & Chris (06:55.654)
Oh.

Pav (07:14.378)
predicting me to 3B saying that if you let us down they said we’ll kill you ourselves and I ended up with an A in 3Bs and the A was in physics and maths isn’t my strong suit so my physics teacher she was she was really shocked she was like how did you get an A at A level physics?

Andy & Chris (07:19.462)
Excellent.

Wow.

Andy & Chris (07:25.458)
Come on.

Andy & Chris (07:33.107)
I think shows determination to be able to change your mindset. If you’ve got a goal and something to focus on, how you shifted from being a D minor student, who was probably mucking about a bit and not taking it seriously. To suddenly being able to really commit and change your whole course, because it mattered so much to you.

Pav (07:45.134)
Yeah.

Pav (07:54.094)
Exactly, and you know what? I say this to a lot of people. I can predict people’s implant careers by having a 20 minute conversation with them. And it all comes down to mindset. Because some people are like, I’m only an associate. I’m in a practice, my boss won’t get me the instruments. I’m in a mix practice, I’m in an NHS practice. I’m in this, you know, it’s a lot of money. And then you get other people who are like, my boss won’t buy me it, so I’ll buy the stuff myself.

Andy & Chris (08:03.462)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (08:22.503)
Yeah.

Pav (08:22.686)
I’m not in the right practice, I will hand in my notice, I will find a different practice or I will upsell to my existing patients. I know it’s expensive, I will sell my car and I’ll do this or I will… So actually that mindset is really, really important and that mindset will get you through tough times. So mindset is something that I’ve worked a lot on recently and something that I’m a great believer on that. If you have a focus and you work towards that focus, you can get very, very far.

Andy & Chris (08:26.234)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s that mindset thing

Yeah, man.

Andy & Chris (08:36.978)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (08:40.699)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (08:45.165)
Mm.

Hmm.

Andy & Chris (08:51.73)
Yeah, we’ll come to your the implant side of your career shortly But there’s a step before that which is also you got your three bees The teachers didn’t need to kill you which is good news and you gave up your stunt career. Yeah You gave out jumping out of bedroom windows for dental school and then graduating before we ask them Can’t ask a quick question. Are you a bit like? an adrenaline don’t worry about stuff or were you more than

Pav (09:03.176)
Yes.

Pav (09:07.682)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (09:18.894)
So like you would just throw yourself, and I don’t just mean out of a window, but you would like go and be a bit thrill seeking.

Pav (09:24.906)
At the time, yes, I was. Now I’m the complete opposite. I’m quite happy to be comfortable now. But at the time, I remember we had a getaway where all the A-level students went away for a couple of days. It was just like an adventure weekend. And there was one bit where we’re doing, I think it was a 75-foot abseil, like off the side of the thing, and everybody was having fun. And I was like, can I go forwards? And the guy’s like, yeah, you can go forwards if you want.

Andy & Chris (09:28.899)
Right, okay.

Andy & Chris (09:41.455)
Ahem.

Pav (09:53.726)
I was the first to abseil forwards out of that group and then everybody was doing it. But at the time I always wanted to be, I always wanted to do something slightly different and just like push the envelope. Whereas now, you know, heights, please don’t, I don’t know where this has come from, it’s come after university, but I don’t tolerate heights well at all. It’s a full-on phobia now. In a plane I’m fine, but it’s like even at the base of a

Andy & Chris (09:57.165)
Wow, okay.

Andy & Chris (10:02.575)
Hmm

Andy & Chris (10:15.741)
Mm.

B-b-b-b-but

Andy & Chris (10:22.447)
Mm.

Pav (10:23.642)
is I feel like I’m going to pass out.

Andy & Chris (10:25.262)
See that’s nuts isn’t it when you could abseil forward, which those of you who maybe have abseiled, abseiling forward is an interesting experience. And to go from that to then being nervous standing at the bottom of a skyscraper, it’s fascinating isn’t it? But then it’s weird because kind of what you’re describing, whilst that’s kind of an adrenaline junkie type stuff, it also says you’re okay being outside your comfort zone.

Pav (10:28.43)
Yeah.

Pav (10:34.801)
Yes.

Pav (10:40.927)
Yeah.

Pav (10:52.727)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (10:52.954)
which then when you then reverse that back into dentistry, the reason that you’ve kind of pushed on and done things and done new things and really kind of expose yourself in terms of what your capabilities, that’s also being outside your comfort zone. So whilst it’s a different, it’s being played out in a different way, it’s a similar approach. You’re somebody who likes pushing boundaries. And like as a kid, you know, perhaps it was abseiling or doing those things, but professionally.

You’re still somebody who still likes to kind of see what the possibilities are in terms of where you can get to. So I think there is a thread in there in terms of how you are as a person.

Pav (11:30.894)
And that’s the other half of the mindset, right? If you’ve got the mindset to do something, the other thing that you need to do is you have to challenge your boundaries, you have to challenge your comfort zones. And you need to be smart about how you’re doing it, otherwise you can quickly land yourself into hot water. But if you’re not prepared to challenge those boundaries, what will happen is you will stay stagnant where you are and you will never grow. And you’ll look.

Andy & Chris (11:33.272)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (11:37.884)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (11:43.954)
video.

Andy & Chris (11:50.072)
Yeah.

Pav (11:52.094)
X number of years down the line you look at your other colleagues who have pushed their boundaries and they’re doing stuff that they are doing things that you wish that you were doing. And the only reason why you’re not doing is because you haven’t pushed your boundaries.

Andy & Chris (12:00.952)
Mmm, yeah.

Andy & Chris (12:05.282)
Yeah. So you graduated in 2002. Which which dental school did you go to?

Pav (12:13.062)
So are we going to get into the politics of this one? I entered into UMDS, what was UMDS, which is United Medical and Dental Schools in 1997. And that was Guy’s and St Thomas’s. And in our second year, we, in inverted commas, merged with King’s College London and we became GKT. It wasn’t a merger, it was a takeover.

Andy & Chris (12:16.206)
Feel free to.

Andy & Chris (12:23.41)
Bye.

Andy & Chris (12:27.844)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (12:40.254)
Mergers don’t exist. Yeah, verges don’t exist, that’s right. There’s always one more dominant party. Yeah.

Pav (12:41.67)
Yes, most only. There’s always one powerhouse, absolutely. And we were told that we would be the last, because we entered UMDS, that we would be the last cohort to exit as UMDS. Our final certificates would say UMDS on it and GKT was just kind of the umbrella under which that we were operating. Because we were already used to guys in St Thomas’ hospitals, we would stay at those campuses.

And what ended up happening is in our final year, which is stressful enough, they decided to merge our year with the King’s year. And we were told that we also had to go over to the Denmark Hill campus, that we had to learn all of their systems, all of their lectures, who had different treatment philosophies.

Andy & Chris (13:18.062)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (13:22.739)
Oh, wow.

Andy & Chris (13:28.754)
different lectures.

Andy & Chris (13:33.907)
Oh wow, that is…

Pav (13:34.018)
So when you go there and you turn around and say, this is, you know, they turn around and say, you know, what is your treatment plan for this patient? This is my diagnosis, this is my treatment plan. Oh, that’s complete nonsense. So you have this level of anxiety, getting to a new campus, learning how the, because even the computer system was completely different. Everything operated completely differently, in addition, gearing up to do your finals as well. And it was just, to be honest, it was a dumb move. It was a really stupid move on the part of the university.

Andy & Chris (13:46.226)
play.

Andy & Chris (13:56.154)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (13:59.691)
Yeah.

Pav (14:03.286)
And then when we graduated, you know, we had a, we had a certificate that said King’s College London on it. I actually failed my finals first time around.

Andy & Chris (14:10.466)
I was going to ask, were there a number of people who weren’t able to do the adjustments and then had to do some research? Because that actually is a massive thing, isn’t it? If you’ve learnt most of your teaching in one way with a certain type of lecturer, then in the last year to then go, oh actually, now I’ll tell you what, we’re going to drive a manual car, not an automatic car.

Pav (14:29.074)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I was probably the worst at adapting because I refused to. I was like, no, I entered UMDS, I want to graduate UMDS. Whereas everybody else was just like, dude, it’s not that serious, just get on with it. I was like, no, I was like, you know, UMDS to the core. To the point where our syllabus at the beginning of each year had the King’s College London logo on the top of it. And I used to photocopy the old UMDS logo, cut it out and stick it over the King’s College London logo. I was like, no, I’m passionate about it.

Andy & Chris (14:35.762)
I forgot.

Andy & Chris (14:40.594)
I’m gonna go get it.

Andy & Chris (14:56.11)
Oh man. Have you got a tattoo or something?

Pav (14:57.074)
I entered UMDS, I would have finished UMDS. No, I didn’t go that far. I was passionate about it, but not that passionate about it either. But even then, I still got on with it. But because we had so many people in our year, because they’d merged two years, there was probably about seven or eight of us who didn’t pass our finals first time around. At the time, because…

Andy & Chris (15:10.438)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (15:15.569)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (15:20.674)
Right, so it’s quite an impact. I’m just laughing at you bothered, that you bothered to cut out a logo to stick on another bit of paper. That is like the ultimate like, right I’m really going to show how annoyed I am. Sorry, fan site, it just made me laugh. That was brilliant.

Pav (15:34.834)
When I get obsessed about things, I get obsessed about things. I get in my body and it has to be done. And what ended up happening is, you’re absolutely right, is when you fail your finals after having studied for so long, it’s not just the five years of university.

Andy & Chris (15:37.854)
No shit!

Andy & Chris (15:49.947)
Mm-hmm.

Pav (15:51.434)
you’ve been studying for GCSEs and for A-levels, you took the best part of 10 years of your life, which is half of your lifetime. So that when people were turning around and saying to me, you know what, when you graduate, it’s only another three months, it’s not gonna be that impactful for you, it doesn’t register up here, because you feel to yourself, half of my life’s been wasted. And I actually thought to myself, I can’t be bothered doing this. And I went to speak to one of my consultants and he turned around and said to me, he said,

Andy & Chris (15:55.076)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (15:58.49)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (16:11.842)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (16:16.556)
I read it.

Pav (16:21.362)
He said to me, he said, don’t be a dick. He said, come on. He said, you’ve made a silly mistake on your clinical exam. He said, you’ve passed all of your written exams, so you don’t need to do any of those again. He said, this is gonna be the easiest three, four months of your life. He said, you have to rock up two days a week to do clinical. He said, the rest of the time, you don’t have to. And he was right. And so I passed second time around. And…

Now it doesn’t mean anything. They were right that as time passes it becomes completely irrelevant. In that moment it’s like the world’s popped out.

Andy & Chris (16:50.262)
Yeah. No. Hmm.

Andy & Chris (16:56.162)
In that moment, it feels like the world’s closing in on you. Yeah. But we’ve done lots of these episodes and we’re always quite staggered at how many very high profile dentists who’ve gone on to have phenomenal careers, they stumbled. Yeah, they stumbled. They didn’t pass their finals or they had to retake a year or whatever it might be. And I find that quite nice because quite often people get to a stage in their career where all they see is what they’re doing now.

They don’t see the 20 years before because either that was pre-social media or people tend not to talk about things when the world’s hard. But to hear stories where people say, I did fail my finals or something did go wrong and there was some adversity and I had to build resilience and then I came back a bit stronger. All those things are really, really valuable because lots of the people who listen to this are students or younger dentists. And I think it’s really important and powerful to realize that this is a career.

It builds over time. It doesn’t need to all happen within six months. That people just see the success, don’t they? They see the results now and go, oh, it’s like the old, what’s that adage? There’s no such thing as an overnight success. Yeah, yeah. You know, there’s takes time to get there. It’s funny, before we started recording today, I was talking to a friend and I was saying to him that thing around people overestimate what they can do in a week, but underestimate what they can do in 10 years. And it’s exactly that. It’s like, you know, in that moment when you found your finals, it felt terrible.

Pav (17:55.894)
Yeah.

Pav (18:05.538)
But it’s-

Pav (18:13.107)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (18:19.898)
But now you’re sitting here shrugging your shoulders saying, so what, so what.

Pav (18:19.924)
Yeah.

Pav (18:23.494)
But you know, it’s the flip side of it. I mean, I’m open and honest about pretty much everything that I That’s all the bad stuff that that’s happened to me. There’s a reason for that is When you’re on Facebook when you are looking at other people’s stuff What they’re doing is they’re showing you that the best of the best, right? I still make mistakes You know There’s there’s a patient

Andy & Chris (18:41.108)
Yeah, definitely.

Pav (18:48.874)
you know, I forgot to mention something to her, I forgot to mention risk of her, of oral-antral communication. I took out a couple of teeth, came out easily, and she ended up with an oral-antral communication. You know what that is, that’s being human, right? I will make more mistakes throughout the rest of my career. Hopefully they’re only gonna be small, easily salvageable with an apology. But you know, it’s the standards that we are held to professionally and that we hold ourselves to.

Andy & Chris (19:01.754)
Hmm. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (19:10.201)
Hmm.

Pav (19:17.006)
quite often they’re unobtainable. And this is why it’s called practice, it’s not called perfection. We don’t work in a dental perfection clinic. We market it, quite often people market it as a dental perfection clinic. And then they’re making a rod for their own back. Over the years I’ve learned that increasing your skills and learning to communicate with patients and just be human with them. So all my patients call me Pav. I don’t wanna be called Dr. Kara, anything along those lines.

Andy & Chris (19:19.13)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (19:25.391)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (19:29.781)
Mmm, yeah.

Mm.

Andy & Chris (19:43.332)
Yeah.

Pav (19:47.202)
Because I’m just one person with a certain skill set helping out another person. That’s all that it is. Right. It’s like if I was to get a plumber in to help me, they’ve got a skill set that I could never fathom to have. And it’s just all that it is you’re helping another person out. And so in my mind is being open and honest. A, I get a lot of other people turn around and say, I’m glad you said that, you know, because…

Andy & Chris (19:52.05)
Yeah, it was nice.

Andy & Chris (19:57.635)
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

I’d always offer a cup of tea and some biscuits. Exactly.

Andy & Chris (20:13.657)
Mmm.

Pav (20:14.78)
that’s what I’m going through. It’s nice to know that there’s light at the end of the tunnel.

Andy & Chris (20:18.194)
That’s good. Well, it prevents also do you remember we did we went to? the global dental Collective was it company is again They did this thing with the about the GDC and I can remember Roger town So basically if you can build a relationship with your patients, then it will save you and prevent issues Escalating because you’ve got that relationship, you know, as you say you’ll have their

they’re Dave, whatever it might be, but it means you can have a conversation about something as opposed to this almost perceived superiority. I think you’re dead right. Which is really, really powerful. So you graduated from UMDS Kings, which was great. How did your career start as an associate? Did you move around much? Did you change your certificate?

Pav (20:52.002)
Yes.

Pav (20:58.903)
Yeah.

Pav (21:09.325)
So early on I ended up in a practice because I had a few months before I entered my what at the time was VT, was confidential foundational now. So I had about nine months as an assistant in that practice and then a year as a VT. And I wasn’t overly comfortable with my VT

Andy & Chris (21:25.294)
Right, okay.

Pav (21:34.742)
didn’t teach me anything in a year or a bit, I learned virtually zero. When I mean zero, you know how you’re supposed to sit down and have like a one hour session every single week and stuff like that. And that never happened. Everything that I learned was from other people. You know, he was pretty good at fixed ortho. So one of the reasons why I chose the practice, I was like, can you teach me fixed ortho? That never happened. You know, I had like half an hour, I had a half an hour session on fixed ortho.

Andy & Chris (21:43.398)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (21:49.906)
Mmm. Bye. Alright.

Andy & Chris (21:59.014)
shame.

Pav (22:01.718)
and that was stick the brackets in the right position and then everything else is easy. And every time that I needed help, I ended up going to the other dentist and it was just, it was an NHS mill. And by the end of it, I was disheartened and I was like, you know what? I’m going to, I’m gonna give it another year and see what happens, but in that year, I’m gonna learn something new. And what I ended up doing is I ended up doing Chris Orr’s cosmetic course.

Andy & Chris (22:05.218)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (22:26.627)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (22:30.906)
Ah, okay.

Pav (22:31.606)
which it was quite early in its days back then, I think it was, I was about the second or third cohort, something like that. That reignited my passion for dentistry. Cause I was like, I’d had 18, 19 months of this, which was just patchwork stuff. And then it was like, okay, this is what you can do with dentistry. And then off the back of that, I ended up, so once I did Chris Orr’s course, I then did Mike Wise’s year-long restorative course.

Andy & Chris (22:42.047)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (22:49.401)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (22:58.254)
Oh, okay.

Pav (22:59.386)
and I just ended up doing a number of courses. One of the reasons why I did a number of courses is in around 2006, I purchased a practice, I purchased my own practice. I was very young, had zero business skills, and I still think I was trying to do the right thing, but at the wrong time. So I bought it a couple of years before everything tanked. And I was trying to do like this spa type experience.

Andy & Chris (23:23.846)
gone.

Andy & Chris (23:28.646)
Right. That was quite early days. Before your time really, yeah.

Pav (23:29.29)
So back then in 2006, it was quite early days. And I was in Doncaster as well. So if I’d have done it on Harley Street in London or something like that, it might work. But it’s 2006 and I love Doncaster, the patients there were lovely, but I was charging 800 pounds for a crown back in 2006. Because the business was failing, I was…

Andy & Chris (23:36.902)
Right. Right, so it might have landed better.

Andy & Chris (23:51.11)
Well, yeah.

Pav (23:59.726)
trying to learn new skills to add in another string to the bow, another method to generate income. So what I was doing is I’d learn to do sedation. I’d learn to do acupuncture so I could deal with gag reflex patients. You know, I was doing denture courses. I was going over to the States to learn from Frank Spear. I was doing Sixman Smiles courses. I was doing this. Yeah, and literally trying to do everything. Excuse me. And…

Andy & Chris (24:07.572)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (24:20.786)
It’s too much, isn’t it? You’re just trying to do everything.

Mm-mm.

Pav (24:29.286)
I couldn’t get the practice to work and I ended up losing it after just under nine years. I think it was like eight and a half years. Between eight and a half and nine years, I ended up having to close the practice. I just started. No, no, I was early on in my implant career then. And to be honest, it was a big relief when the practice went because I didn’t enjoy it. It’s not my skill set. HR is not my skill set. Numbers aren’t my skill set.

Andy & Chris (24:40.888)
Well

Andy & Chris (24:54.422)
Yeah.

Pav (24:57.314)
KPIs are not my skill set, you know, my skill set.

Andy & Chris (24:59.228)
What’s great, Pav, hearing you say that is the self-awareness to admit that wasn’t something that worked for you. Because I think…

Pav (25:05.963)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (25:07.994)
The way that modern dentistry is, I think lots of people see that being a principal somehow is a high level status and being an associate. But that’s like being a really good footballer and wanting to be a manager. They are very different things. You can still be a phenomenal dentist and work as an associate or rove around delivering services. You do not have to own a business to still have an incredible career and you’re testament to that.

Pav (25:13.227)
Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yes.

Pav (25:29.491)
Yes.

Yes.

Andy & Chris (25:32.794)
And it’s hard to be a practice owner. It is. People perceive it as something really easy. And the answer is it’s not easy.

Pav (25:35.38)
It’s hot.

Pav (25:40.274)
And the most profitable practices are the ones which are associate-led, which means that the principal isn’t actually doing that much other than working on the business. So the principal is figuring out strategies, marketing strategies, B2B strategies to try to bring business in. They tend to do one or two of the high-end lucrative things like implants, but they tend not to do the general work. The general work…

Andy & Chris (26:04.725)
Yeah.

Pav (26:07.734)
then given to the associates and it’s given to therapists. So I think it’s, you know, as you were saying, a lot of people assume, wow, isn’t it easy earning money when you’re a practice owner? It’s like, you know, because when you’re a practice owner, everybody else gets paid first and you get paid last. So that means if you haven’t generated enough, you take home less than everyone else.

Andy & Chris (26:09.524)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (26:16.4)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (26:22.455)
Yeah, yeah. And also…

That’s right. And dealing with people. I think that’s the thing that people misunderstand that actually dealing with people on an HR level is really, really quite hard. It’s. No, you can’t. You can’t. You can’t say, oh, for goodness sake, because ultimately you can’t. You’ve got to go down the. You know, it’s I think it’s a minefield because and it’s got worse and worse. I mean, we quite often see.

Pav (26:38.026)
Yeah, because you can’t tell them to suck it up, right?

Pav (26:44.693)
I can’t see that.

Pav (26:52.272)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (26:55.034)
when our valuers do valuations, they end up with, you know, someone has got like seven part-time staff or something. And you say, why have you got so many part-time staff? And he said, oh, well, when they came back from maternity leave, they asked for part-time, so I have to give it to them. And we were saying, well, no, you don’t have to give it to them, but they, because basically most dentists are really nice people who aren’t business educated, they don’t know. So you don’t know what you don’t know, but all you end up doing is creating yourself an issue. It’s fascinating.

Pav (27:20.002)
Yeah.

Pav (27:27.178)
Yeah, absolutely.

Andy & Chris (27:28.883)
So you now, in terms of, you know, you describe, you know, five or six or seven different things that you were doing to try and to make your practice work, but now you’ve really doubled down. You do prosthodontics, your implants, and I think your phrase is, you’re a self-confessed detainee nerd. Detainee nerd. So that’s your world now.

Pav (27:45.462)
Titanin, yes. Yeah, so I place implants and I’ll do any prosthetics relating to implants, that’s it. So because of the training that I’ve had with Mike Wise, Chris Ward and so many people, Frank Spear and people like that, I was really quite comfortable, but even before I started placing implants to do full mouth rehab, I understand occlusion complex stuff as well.

Andy & Chris (28:10.704)
Yep.

Pav (28:11.73)
So I do anything relating to implants and implant restorations. As a surgeon, I prefer just placing the implants like somebody else did the restoration. But, you know, they mess it up, I then have to deal with it. Because implant prosthetics and prosthodontics and occlusion is very different to that on teeth. So I like to maintain control of it so that it’s nice.

Andy & Chris (28:15.687)
Cool.

Andy & Chris (28:32.11)
Mm-hmm. Get your take on, do you think that the dentistry 10, 12, 15 years out is going to move to a model where we’ll have general practitioners who are doing maintenance care type work and then triaging out to people like you and other specialists? Because lots of markets are moved in that way, where you have a generalist that kind of offers a triage type service and then you have this kind of pool of specialists. Is that the way it’s going?

Pav (29:00.13)
So just to clarify, I’m not a specialist because there’s no speciality list for implants, but everything that I do is relating to implants, just legally after I have to make that statement. What I think is going to happen, what I think is going to happen, and I’ll tell you the reason why this is happening as well, is general dentists will find something that they’re quite happy and they’re comfortable with. It might be surgery, it might be treating kids, it might be endo for some…

weird reason, it might be perio, and they’ll gravitate towards that. And the reason for that is, is actually quite simple, it’s because of the litigious society that we’re actually in now, right? So which means that if I’m not comfortable doing endo but I’m comfortable doing surgery, I’ll just do less and less of the endo. What happens is over a period of time, it’ll be like, okay, you know what, I’m not going to do the molar endo, I’m just going to do premolars and anterior teeth.

Andy & Chris (29:40.376)
What?

Andy & Chris (29:48.72)
Yeah.

Pav (29:56.822)
Then over a period of time, then it’s just like, you know, I won’t do the molars or the pre-molars. I’ll just do the anti- then it’s just like, why should I bother doing any of these when I’m so busy doing the surgery? I think what will happen is you will end up with practices where it’s a generalist practice, but you’ve got a number of associates in there who are pretty damn good at doing one thing. They may not be specialist, but they are good at doing things. I think that’s

Andy & Chris (30:06.173)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (30:15.426)
Yeah, specialist in it, yeah.

Andy & Chris (30:23.686)
Yeah, right.

Pav (30:25.926)
That’s the way that is kind of like heading at the moment. I do think the biggest challenge that young dentists have now is when they graduate, they are woefully unprepared to enter the market in terms of their diagnostics, treatment planning skills and their execution as well. Cause they don’t get exposed to anything. I’ve been speaking to a number of experienced people.

Andy & Chris (30:28.786)
sure.

Andy & Chris (30:41.519)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (30:48.944)
Yeah. No.

Pav (30:53.282)
who are like, you know what, we’ve got younger dentists in, it’s just, you know, it’s easier for us to do the work because we know she’s got to teach them everything. What does this come back to? This comes back to what we were talking about earlier, mindset and determination. So these young dentists who are graduating now.

Andy & Chris (31:00.73)
It’s almost like you have to retrain them. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:12.078)
Mm.

Pav (31:16.366)
They have to come out hell bent on, I am going to upskill, I am going to learn, I will do whatever it takes. But that’s not what happens. Not just composite bonding. A lot of them come out and they’ll do it. I’ll do one course on composite bonding and then I’ll become a cosmetic dentist. And you’ve got people like Govind Abirth and Andrew Chandrapal and Jason Smith doing this wonderful cosmetic work. These guys have put 100, 200K into their own education.

Andy & Chris (31:25.942)
Not just composite bonding. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:34.138)
Yeah, that’s right.

Andy & Chris (31:38.16)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (31:45.294)
Yeah, yeah, so definitely.

Pav (31:45.698)
They’ve honed their skills over, sorry guys, I’m not, if you’re listening, I’m not aging you, but you’ve honed your skills over decades. I’m saying, well, I’m not aging you, but I am. And people are coming out and they’re like, okay, I wanna go with them. It’s like, okay, yeah, it’s like, okay, you can do that. You can enter that market, but understand who now your competition is. Whereas the better thing to do is to peel it back.

Andy & Chris (31:53.341)
Hahaha

Andy & Chris (31:58.488)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (32:03.002)
Yeah, they want to get to that level straight away, don’t they?

Andy & Chris (32:11.202)
No.

Pav (32:14.954)
a little bit and just turn around and say, okay, this is what I want to do. I’m going to start learning the basics. I want to start learning them well. And I’m going to, I’m going to refine my skills. I’m going to do courses. I’m going to speak to my boss and, you know, have some mentoring with him and then say, right, okay, can you send me a handful of cases just so I can start to do this and, you know, in order, in order to build an avalanche, you have to start the snowball first.

Andy & Chris (32:21.862)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (32:33.254)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (32:40.166)
Yes.

Pav (32:40.954)
So if you want a skill set which is like an avalanche, is unstoppable, you have to start with that slow movement first. And you can’t jump in straight at that top end.

Andy & Chris (32:48.638)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (32:52.214)
Yeah, I’m telling the funny thing that made me laugh there was the fact of endo again. Yeah, why would you want to do endo? It’s quite it’s fascinating the number of dentists are like no one would do We should really get a specialist endodontist on who can balance enjoys the people over the years who’ve gone It’s just it’s just not my thing, but there are people out there that love it. That’s how it’s funny

Pav (32:58.85)
You are. Ha ha ha. Ha ha.

Pav (33:06.882)
Yeah, I know I don’t. And I’ll tell you when I started struggling with ENDO, because for a short period of time, I had a microscope in my practice. When I say short period of time, I had it for about four or five years. I was actually pretty good at ENDO. And then because the practice was failing, I had to sell the microscope to cover the cost of some other things. All of a sudden, I couldn’t see anymore, even with high powered loops.

Andy & Chris (33:20.954)
Right.

Andy & Chris (33:29.252)
Ah, okay, yeah, yeah.

Pav (33:35.114)
I was used to times 15 magnification when you can see the apex of the root. And my confidence just dropped because I was like, I know what I’m leaving behind. It’s not the best service for the patient. And that’s when I went on the route that, you know, I’ll still do the pre-molars and the anteriors, then after a while, it’s just like, you know what, I’ll just send everything to my endodontist. And my endodontist was, was superb. You know, cause you get some endodontists where, you know, patients got toothache and they’re so busy, they’re like, you know, we, we can’t get you in for six weeks, how can you leave a patient like that?

Andy & Chris (33:37.377)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (33:41.158)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (33:52.402)
to stop. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (34:03.078)
Hmm. Yeah.

Pav (34:05.034)
The guy that I used to use, he deliberately have his diary structured so that he could get the patient in within 48 hours, but normally the next day. And because he was so proficient at it, and again, he would do the entire treatment in a single visit, so the patient would go in toothache, come out with everything done, as opposed to two stages. Why was he proficient at it? Because he learned to do it. He committed. He was determined. He had the right to do it.

Andy & Chris (34:16.002)
Yeah. That’s good.

Andy & Chris (34:23.175)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (34:26.746)
Wow, that’s impressive.

Andy & Chris (34:32.15)
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, yeah, he became a master. It is true. What’s your what’s your kind of clinical work pattern look like now then? So you do you work across a number of different practices now, or you just based from one site?

Pav (34:34.39)
down to mindset and determination.

Pav (34:45.362)
So I work from about three different practices on a peripatetic basis, but I also spend a lot of time mentoring other dentists as well in the field of implantology. So I’m up and down the country and sometimes that’s, you know, I’m ready to start my full arch journey. Can we do some full arch cases together? Or sometimes it’s like, you know, I’m quite happy doing this, but this is crazy stuff. I don’t want to do this. Can you come in and do it for me? And they’re happy to assist. So

Andy & Chris (34:57.753)
Yeah.

Pav (35:15.97)
I see quite a few patients where they need zygomatic implants or they need subperiosteal frames or something much more complex. I have some people where they’ve done courses and like, okay, we’re ready to be taught how to do that. We just need mentoring. And then I’ve got delegates at the opposite end of the scale where they’re just like, I’m early in my career starting implants. Can you help me build up proficiency so we do that? Or whether it’s people want to learn a sinusif. So it’s split between.

Andy & Chris (35:23.768)
Yum.

Andy & Chris (35:30.168)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (35:38.286)
Mm.

Pav (35:44.534)
Couple of days a week in my own clinics, couple of days a week traveling to help other people start and expand on their implant.

Andy & Chris (35:47.343)
Right.

Andy & Chris (35:50.702)
Well. And is this, this is under the Academy of Implant Excellence that you do this. So that sounds like it’s not a particularly prescriptive program that says, I do this. It sounds like it’s more of a mentoring support program based on where the clinicians at the moment and you then taking them through a journey of improvement over a period of time.

Pav (35:56.587)
Yes, that’s right.

Pav (36:12.738)
So the theory is quite prescriptive, okay. So the theory is delivered in basically three modules, essentials, advanced and mastery. And so, and the reason why I’ve made the theory aspects and the hands-on aspect separate is because some people are like, you know, I just need the theory because I already placed implants, I’m confident with my surgery, I can implement this stuff.

Andy & Chris (36:23.108)
Yeah.

Pav (36:36.81)
and other people like, you know, Pav, I need the theory. I’ve got somebody who will mentor me already. And other people like Pav, I need the theory and the mentoring. So apparently, yeah, so there’s a lot of flexibility behind it. So by bundling theory and hands-on altogether with no option is I was getting a lot of people, they’re just like, Pav, I don’t need the hands-on, you know, I’ve got delegates abroad where all they do is place implants. They just want to learn the really complex stuff.

Andy & Chris (36:42.99)
Right, so there’s quite a lot of flexibility in there, yeah.

Andy & Chris (36:55.718)
Yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (37:02.638)
about you.

Pav (37:02.654)
And then I’ve got other people where, as I said, they’re like, oh, my principal places implants. He’s good. He said he’d mentor me. Then all they need for me is the theory, really. That’s the reason why I did it. And another reason why I did it is I’m really passionate about this stuff. And I’m a great believer in teaching knowledge in depth. So not only how to do something, but why to do something. Because when you teach why to do something,

Andy & Chris (37:11.948)
But…

Andy & Chris (37:24.921)
Mm.

Yeah.

Pav (37:31.162)
is it allows you, instead of being overly prescriptive with your treatment protocols, so your treatment protocols, so when you go on a course, it’s like, this is the protocol. You get protocol A, you go on another course and you get protocol B. If you understand the biology of why these protocol works, you can take a bit of protocol A, bit of protocol B and then do whatever you need to do. So you end up being more dynamic in your treatment planning. So…

Andy & Chris (37:53.4)
Mm.

Pav (37:59.274)
in the middle of surgery, if shit hits the fan, you can just switch to another technique because you understand the biological principles. So I’ve always been passionate about, and this is what I get, you know what I get, because I teach a lot of, I run like a boot camp for people who want to start doing implants. You know, like the way that I teach it, and I never knew that before, you know, it’s like, you know, what suture material are you using? Why are you using it? You know, how do you hold the needle? What’s the cross section of the needle like?

Andy & Chris (38:07.434)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (38:17.626)
Right.

Andy & Chris (38:28.356)
Mm-hmm.

Pav (38:29.026)
You know, what happens when you change the needle circumference and needle design? How does that impact your, your everything? It is.

Andy & Chris (38:35.546)
It’s quite challenging thinking for some people because quite often we just do things because we were told to do it by somebody who had a poor experience. Therefore, we assume that is not necessarily the best way to do it, the only way to do it. We don’t even question there might be another way of doing it. So there’s something else that interests me, Pav, is that this might not be true, but it was many years ago. Germany’s got a population of about 83 million. We’ve got a population of about 67 million-ish. So we’re not a million miles apart.

Pav (38:42.03)
Yeah.

Pav (38:47.583)
Yes.

Pav (38:51.22)
Salute.

Pav (39:03.007)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (39:04.602)
But in years gone by, in Germany, they always seem to deliver way more implants, like up to 10 times as many implants as the UK. Do you know if that’s kind of still the same? And why is it? Why does the UK lag behind in terms of implant volume?

Pav (39:18.479)
Yes it is still the same and a big reason for that is the cost of everything out there.

So I’m not just talking about cost of living, but cost of their labs, their components, and because they’re on the continent, the cost of the implants and everything like that is actually quite a bit cheaper. I know one guy who places on average six implants a day. Six a day, five days a week, six implants a day. 2,000 euros for a…

Andy & Chris (39:31.685)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (39:39.514)
Bye. Right. Okay.

Andy & Chris (39:48.555)
Six a day. Wowee. Wow.

Pav (39:57.486)
for a restored implant. And he can afford to do that because, you know, the lab costs out there, the implant costs out there, they’re a little bit cheaper. But in addition to that as well, because he’s placing so many implants, he’s refined his skills so that he can very comfortably place six implants per day. You know? So if I wanted to, I could drop my fees.

Andy & Chris (39:59.102)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (40:05.042)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (40:17.279)
Yeah

Pav (40:22.982)
and I could be doing six implants a day as well. But I don’t wanna, I’m at that point in my career where I’d rather see fewer people and do work to the level that I want them to do. Because in order to do something like that as well, you have to be quite systematic in how you do it, which means that protocols have got to be fairly similar from one patient to the next with minimal variance.

Andy & Chris (40:25.454)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (40:31.857)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (40:42.556)
Mm. Yeah.

Pav (40:43.894)
whereas I will take each case on its individual merits and build a treatment plan according for that patient. But it’s possible. I know people in the UK, I’ve placed six implants in a day comfortably before, but again, it takes time to build up that skillset, which comes from the mindset and the determination that we’re talking about today.

Andy & Chris (40:47.342)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (41:01.37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. Listening to you talk today, you’re so passionate about your dentistry and particularly implants, and you’re actually a lecturer and mentor people. So I was interested when we were sort of talking before we started recording about the other German story, about when you checked into a hotel. I just find it amazing, because you’re sort of talking with such kind of confidence and authority. Just tell us your German hotel story.

Pav (41:19.123)
Yeah.

Pav (41:30.21)
Okay, fine. So there’s a couple of things you need to know about me. One, I have a very driver-type personality, so I’m very blunt and to the point. That’s actually given me issues with my patience over the years, because a lot of patients like a much softer approach. So I’ve had to work on my communication skills. But the other thing as well is I’m very much an introvert. I’m a real, real introvert. I know it doesn’t come across it

Andy & Chris (41:36.746)
Ha ha ha.

Pav (42:00.584)
etc. But again that’s purely through training. If you turn around and said to me, Pav, every person on the planet’s disappeared apart from your wife and your daughter, I’d be like, oh cool, isn’t that amazing?

Andy & Chris (42:03.621)
Pfft

Andy & Chris (42:12.239)
Mind you, we often say, we think there’s a lot of synthetic extroverts out there. We think most people aren’t naturally as we are. We’ve conditioned ourselves to be as we are.

Pav (42:17.406)
Yes, yeah, I agree. I agree. Yes. And, but my level of introvertedness is quite severe. And this is where it came out. So about a year ago, about a year ago, I was on a trip to see Meisinger, the factory in Germany, and the hotel was booked kindly by Meisinger.

And when I travelled from, I think it was from Heathrow though, no I went from Luton over to Dusseldorf, then it was about half an hour in a taxi. So a lot of the guys had tried to get on the same flight but I just couldn’t so I actually took an earlier flight and this is when it was just absolutely pelting it down with rain and it was really bad when we got to Dusseldorf. And so I got there.

got off the plane, got into the taxi, drove for what felt like best part of an hour, and pulled up to this, best way to describe it was typical German architecture, like hotel. And I think that the hotel was retrofitted into it. It was, you know, the hotel from The Shining, it was just forever, it just went on forever, and very daunting, very like depressing type architecture.

Andy & Chris (43:34.069)
What?

Yeah

Andy & Chris (43:42.994)
quite austere, yeah.

Pav (43:44.294)
Yeah, and what ended up happening is I was messaging one of my good mates, also a severe introvert, and I said to him, look, I just got to the hotel, I said, wait till you see this place, I said it’s like the hotel from The Shining, and I checked in, went upstairs to my bedroom, opened the door, looked around the room, there’s no bed in the room, there was a meeting table in

Andy & Chris (44:13.444)
Interesting.

Pav (44:14.562)
I looked around and there was no shower, no ensuite or anything like that. Me too in the middle. I was just like… Oh, then I saw a door in the corner. I was like, okay, I thought it was one of these ones where you open the door, but that was locked into the next room. I was given a bedroom with no bed in it. I was like, okay, so they put us up in a hostel, the sofa bed pulls out, the sofa bed didn’t pull out. I was like, I can’t, I just can’t do this. Now…

any normal person, any extrovert or anybody who’s like not as severe as introverts as myself, they would go downstairs and they’d turn around and say, I think there’s been a bit of a mistake, there’s no bed in my room, would you mind checking me into a different room? Okay, my introvert brain kicked in. I was like, if I do that, I’m going to have to put up with apologies. They’re going to turn around and say, are you sure the manager might come out? There might be two or three people there apologizing to me, but all I want is a different room.

Andy & Chris (44:50.286)
Yeah. Oh, you’re having a laugh?

Pav (45:09.386)
So I messaged my mate and I turned around and said to him, this is before I went back downstairs, I messaged my mate and I said to him, dude, there’s no bed in the room. And he goes, what do you mean there’s no bed in the room? I said, there’s no bed in the bedroom. And he says, nah, you’re joking. So I took a video of it and showed him and sent it to him on WhatsApp. And he goes, there’s no bed in the room. I said, that’s what I’ve just been saying. So.

Andy & Chris (45:32.146)
Yeah, I can identify a bed. Well, the thing is, the way hotels work, the clue is in the name. They rent to us bedrooms. That is the clue is there, isn’t it?

Pav (45:37.352)
Yeah, I was like, that’s exactly it, because you thought I was joking.

Pav (45:44.252)
Yeah. Yes! Absolutely.

Yes, yeah. So there was a group chat of everybody who’s visiting as well and I put it on there, said guys, I said, I don’t know what’s going on, I said there’s no bed in the room. And everybody was like, this is ridiculous, I don’t know what’s going on. I said, I think they’ve accidentally booked us into a hostel. I said that there’s no bed, there’s no shower, there’s no this, that and the other. And I was just like, I don’t want to be dealing with this. And everybody was like, no, that can’t be right, that can’t be right. And I messaged my travel agent.

You notice I said message and not call because when you’re an introvert, you message and not call. And I said to her, Chris, I said, I’ve got a problem. I said, this is the hotel that I’m at. I said, there’s no bedroom. I said, can you find me another hotel? Within 10 minutes, she was like, there’s this one, do you want me to book it for you? And she did. It was a holiday inn, it was about half a mile up the road. So I walked half a mile up the road in pouring rain, absolutely pouring rain.

Andy & Chris (46:17.66)
Yeah.

Pav (46:43.178)
checked back into this other hotel because checking walking through rain and checking into a new hotel is more comfortable It’s preferable to have it than having an uncomfortable

Andy & Chris (46:50.514)
is preferable to a… And also, Pav, I hope you used your stuntman skills and climbed out the window to leave discreetly so no one saw you. Ha ha ha! Wow! That’s incredible. I mean, it’s incredible that they put you in basically a meeting room instead of a bedroom. And also, your solution to this was to leave quietly and change somewhere else.

Pav (47:01.856)
I was on the fourth floor so no not that time.

Pav (47:06.798)
Yeah. It’s just… It’s just a cov…

Pav (47:17.77)
You know what the worst thing is? You know what the worst thing is? Everybody arrived two hours later and sent me a video of a bed in their room. Mine was the only one that didn’t have a bed in it. And I was like, I was like, I’m happy here. I was like, this hotel is actually nicer. I said, it’s a half hour walk to there. I said, I can do that in the morning. So it’s not.

Andy & Chris (47:24.19)
Excellent. Just you.

Andy & Chris (47:34.294)
That’s a wonderful story. Wow, brilliant. Wonderful story. That is excellent. Pav, we always finish up in the same way. We ask, I guess, two questions. I think we’re going to struggle to top that story. Yeah, I think that’s going to be it. We’ll go with it anyway. So if you could be a fly on a wall in a situation, where would you like to be in and who’d be there?

The person who gave him that room. Let’s have a laugh. Let’s not put a bed in it.

Pav (48:00.553)
Fly on the wall in any situation. I want to be a fly on the wall in the gym where Jake Paul is training to fight Mike Tyson. Because I want to know exactly how afraid he actually is. Because either he’s afraid of fighting Mike Tyson or he’s delusional. It’s one of the two.

Andy & Chris (48:20.011)
He should be afraid of him.

Pav (48:21.338)
He’s not genuinely confident. So I actually met Mike Tyson at a meet and greet a number of years ago, and I shook his hand and it’s like shaking, it’s like shaking a concrete glove. And this is, he hadn’t trained for years. He’s got this, he’s trained his physical body to a certain extent where it’s just like, he’s not gonna forget this stuff.

Andy & Chris (48:26.636)
Oh wow.

Andy & Chris (48:32.506)
Really.

Pav (48:40.782)
ingrained into him. When he trains he’s just gonna get better and better and I’d love to be on because Drake, Paul and all these influence they get on my nerves right and he’s constantly going I’m gonna beat Mike I’m gonna beat Mike and I’d love to be a fly on the wall on his gym where his trainer is going to me you really think you’re gonna beat Mike and he’s gonna go no I’m really scared I’m trying to get out of here.

Andy & Chris (48:41.623)
Hmm… Pfft!

Andy & Chris (48:50.088)
Ah, yeah, yeah.

Andy & Chris (48:54.709)
Mm-hmm.

Andy & Chris (49:03.098)
See if you can run around the ring long enough until Mike Tyson gets tired. I saw some footage recently of Mike Tyson from when he was in his prime, but also today, and how he jumps and twists, which was kind of his sort of trademark move in terms of how people couldn’t get rounding because he sort of jumped and twisted and suddenly he was in a different position. And he still does it today and the speed at which he moves is just incredible. Absolutely remarkable.

Pav (49:11.082)
Yeah. Yes.

Pav (49:19.904)
Yeah.

Pav (49:24.478)
Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve seen this footage of him when he’s about 16, 17 years old. His speed is just insane. Absolutely insane. In terms of in terms of boxers, I think he’s one of the best ever. A big part of that is because he was a lot shorter than the average heavyweight, his was pure technique. And if you watch him boxing, all the talk is coming from the

Andy & Chris (49:30.802)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (49:34.661)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (49:44.168)
Mmm.

Andy & Chris (49:52.024)
Yeah.

Pav (49:54.358)
you know, his defense was superb and so here’s the other issue as well is I understand he’s had somewhat of a controversial past, I’m not going to get into that because there’s different thoughts on that. Some people are like, well, you know, he was stitched up, etc. Let’s not get into that. There’s a culture nowadays where it’s like, oh, if you said something x number of years ago, that, you know, you have to be accountable for it today.

Andy & Chris (49:56.611)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (50:02.874)
Yep.

Andy & Chris (50:20.486)
Hmm… Yup.

Pav (50:20.99)
It’s this whole cancel culture thing. The issue is people change and people mature over time. If you speak to Mike now, is…

Andy & Chris (50:26.113)
Yeah.

Pav (50:29.574)
Sometimes he sounds like a broken person because he lost his daughter when she was four years old and she managed to start the treadmill and she didn’t know how to stop it and there was an accident. Speaking to him now compared to where he was and if you listen to his full, his true story, it’s actually quite a heartbreaking story. He was found on the streets. I’m not saying he’s a golden boy, I’m not saying he’s…

Andy & Chris (50:33.777)
Hmm.

Andy & Chris (50:40.238)
Wow

Andy & Chris (50:50.076)
Mmm. Yeah. No, no, no.

Pav (50:55.118)
perfect. But that’s the nature of being human. You know, nobody’s perfect. But I think the other thing that people need to understand as well is that, you know, when you do things and you make mistakes, it’s okay. You need to learn from them and move forward. The whole thing is if you make it to me and say you learn from it, move forward, and you grow as a person, don’t hold people to things that they were like, I’m not the same person I was 10 years ago. Yeah.

Andy & Chris (50:57.582)
Yeah.

Andy & Chris (51:07.706)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hmm No We’re a nice sound we’re sound by culture though, aren’t we that’s what we yeah and also something like Mike Tyson who’s had to live out Most of his life in the public eye. Yeah, so we get to make mistakes and people don’t see them

Pav (51:28.928)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (51:31.766)
Only a few people might see them. We get forgiven and we carry on. But when you’re living out, everything that you do is under scrutiny from the media, it must be so flipping hard. Because sometimes people, you know, we all have errors of judgment, but they’re mostly private. Not so for them. So my follow-up question.

Pav (51:32.024)
Yes.

Pav (51:37.718)
Yeah.

Pav (51:45.911)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Pav (51:54.591)
Yes.

Andy & Chris (51:55.528)
and you’ve already met him, so it might not be him. But if you could meet somebody and sit down with somebody and have a chat for an hour, you know, a cup of coffee, glass of wine, whatever your choice is, who would you like to meet?

Pav (51:57.326)
I’m going to go ahead and close the video.

Pav (52:04.886)
Dead or alive? Yeah. Yeah, I’d want to sit down with both of my grandfathers again because one of my grandfathers, he was really proud of me when I was studying. He always wanted that for me. He passed away when I was quite young.

Andy & Chris (52:06.118)
Dead or alive. Fact or fiction?

Andy & Chris (52:12.495)
I

Andy & Chris (52:23.641)
Hmm.

Mmm.

Pav (52:26.262)
So for him to see how hard I’ve studied, I think it’d be amazing for him. My other grandfather, he’s the reason why I got into implants because he had a set of dentures he couldn’t eat with. He asked me to help him, and I didn’t have the skills to help him. That’s what started me on my implant journey. That’s why I’m so passionate about implants. And I never got to help him, but I want to be able to say to him that, look, I’m trying to help as many other people, and every time I help that person, it reminds me of you.

Andy & Chris (52:31.675)
Lovely.

Andy & Chris (52:38.459)
Ha ha ha.

Andy & Chris (52:41.867)
I am a… ..Vine.

Andy & Chris (52:50.141)
Mm.

Andy & Chris (52:53.991)
That’s lovely.

Pav (52:55.702)
Those are the two people that I’d want to meet again.

Andy & Chris (52:57.87)
Wonderful. Pav, it’s been an absolute joy. Yeah, fabulous. It’s been a whirlwind. We’ve covered so much ground. It’s been absolutely fabulous. And I think you tell stories. Well, you are probably the best person I’ve ever come across who hides their introvertedness so well. Yeah, it’s a talent. It’s a talent. It is, but no, I genuinely wish you well. I think you’ve obviously found a thing that really matters to you. Floats your boat. Yeah, and…

Pav (53:01.668)
Thank you.

Pav (53:16.473)
That’s a skill in itself as well.

Pav (53:21.078)
Yeah. Thank you so much.

Andy & Chris (53:26.362)
doing it for yourself, but also helping other people achieve their success in the field that you’re passionate about, it’s cool. He’s gonna throw himself off the chair now. Exactly, yeah, dive out the window and celebrate. Bye, always gone. That’s wonderful, Pav, really appreciate your time. Cheers, thanks for your time. Cheers. Cheers, man. Dada.

Pav (53:42.936)
Thank you so much. Thanks.