Transcript – Dentology Podcast with Shameek Popat
Episode Release Date – Monday 16 September 2024
Andy & Chris (00:01.216)
Here we are. Here we are again. I believe this is another podcast, my friend. It is, it is. And they keep racking up. One of many. after week, every Monday morning, seven o ‘clock. Always enjoyable. Well, we think they’re enjoyable. Well, this episode is going to be a treat. It’s going to absolute joy. Today we have a dentist. We also have the founder and CEO of Tooth Angel. Tooth Angel being a…
health first, planet positive, new range of dental products that we’re going to get to later on. Do you remember what might be the hat? Well it possibly might be. For those joining us on YouTube you can see our guest adorning himself with some merch. Some subtle branding. is and today we’re joined by Dr Shamik Popat. Hello Shamik, are you? Yeah, hello. Not at all.
Shameek (00:46.492)
Hello guys, thank you for having me. This is very, very exciting. I’ve been looking forward to this actually. So finally, finally got here.
Andy & Chris (00:55.708)
Yeah, exactly. going to be good. It’s going to be good. Yeah. We always start broadly in the same way at the beginning, which is kind of family. I don’t know if family is really important to you, but we’ll come back to that in a minute. You strike me as somebody who looks for joy in everything you do. Whenever we meet, you’re smiling, you’re looking to have fun.
the people around you seem to buy into that. I’m sure that’s linked in some small part of other to having a toot toot that I’m sure we’ll talk about later. Where does that kind of sense of fun and joy come from for you?
Shameek (01:30.502)
from a young person I’ve always been like that. I mean, I’ll tell you the journey that I’ve had, which is fairly interesting, hopefully. But it’s the philosophy that I’ve always had, and it’s something that I’ve actually tried to ingrain into my children as well. I’ve always been a glass half full person, and try and get the best out of everything that can happen. I love talking to people.
Andy & Chris (01:37.28)
Yeah, please do.
Andy & Chris (01:48.47)
Mm
Andy & Chris (01:52.332)
And also Shemeika, I have been with you that whilst that glass might have been half full at some point, it does get drained as well.
Multiple of all fools.
Shameek (02:00.473)
You know me well, my friend. You know me well. Yes, I do. I do like my whiskey and my wine. And yeah, we can talk about that later on as well. You know what? I know I’m going to digress a little bit as well, a little bit as well. So soon earlier on and stuff, but I’ve always, you know, I like to get to know people, right? I love people. I love to know about them.
I think networking is the biggest strength that one person can have. And I’ve tried to actually ingrain that into my children as well. And I had a real proud daddy moment the other day. My daughter had just did a Deloitte internship.
And then she got taken out for dinner with all the big wigs, directors and things like that. And she was, you know, a young 20 year old at this big fancy dinner and drinks and things like that. And she came up to me said, you know, Dad, what would Dad do in a situation like this? I know.
He would go and introduce himself to everyone and talk. And it doesn’t matter what, but he will talk. And he said, that’s what I did. I went and introduced myself to everyone there. I had a chat with them so that they knew who I was. I could find it. And I was like, wow. And I was just thinking, wow. So, you know, that’s literally filtered through. And that’s like, that’s really, you know, made me feel really, really happy. I’ve always been that type of personality that wherever I go,
Andy & Chris (03:14.786)
Brilliant. Good for her.
Shameek (03:34.316)
whether it’s waiters, maitre d’s and stuff, I will get to know them. I will know their name. And I’ve got to an age now where my memory is not as good. So I will actually write it down. You know, you have this whole thing about, these great businesses where someone comes and they’ll remember you. you know, the guy remembered my name and things like that. I do it the opposite way. I remember their names. And that makes them feel good as well. The power of a name is so big.
Andy & Chris (03:53.206)
Yeah
Andy & Chris (04:01.938)
Mmm, delicious. Yeah.
Shameek (04:03.352)
It really is big. I think that’s from, gosh, How to Win Friends and Influence People, a great book. Dale Carnegie, that’s who I was looking for. I think that’s where I learned that from. And that’s something that I would recommend that everyone needs to read.
Andy & Chris (04:12.522)
Okay, yeah
Andy & Chris (04:22.658)
But we all like to feel special. We all know what… Yeah, all know what it feels like as well. When someone’s nice or kind or they’re going out their way because we know what it feels like. So I think that’s kind of a superpower. And it’s actually relatively straightforward to do. It costs nothing. So from that point of view, it’s something that is very easy.
Shameek (04:40.816)
Very easy to do, exactly.
Andy & Chris (04:46.656)
Yeah, and it’s really hard if you ask the right questions for them to get the answers wrong. People can just feel very comfortable, can’t they? It’s just making not people feel weird, Exactly. So let’s kind of roll back to the beginning then. So what was your childhood? Where did you get brought up? Have you got siblings? What your parents about?
Shameek (04:50.887)
Yeah.
Shameek (05:03.664)
Yeah, so yeah, this is quite a little interesting story. So I was actually born in Kampala, Uganda. So I am actually one of those Ugandan Asians, right? And so I was born there. Actually, my wife was born there in the same hospital, bizarrely, but we never met till we started dating here, actually. But no, no, no, no, no, no. I’m a toy boy, so she’s older than me.
Andy & Chris (05:10.837)
okay. Right.
Andy & Chris (05:20.544)
Wow. Wow. If you tell me on the same day, I’m going to be like, ooh.
Shameek (05:35.904)
So obviously the whole ED Amin thing happened, but even before that, actually the family had thought that they should have some kind of presence in India, some kind of business in India. We used to have a tea estate in Uganda, a big tea estate actually. And they sent my father over there and then the whole ED Amin thing happened and all the Asians had to leave. And most of the family came to the UK. My father obviously, because he was always trying to establish something in India.
Andy & Chris (05:38.786)
Hmm
Andy & Chris (05:47.99)
I will.
Andy & Chris (05:54.368)
Yeah, Yeah.
Shameek (06:02.364)
went to India. And my brother was born in India, actually, in Gujarat. And we spent the first 13 years of our life in Baroda, Gujarat, actually. So we grew up there and had fantastic childhood. Absolutely, absolutely loved that childhood. And I think it’s part of what made me who I am, actually, in a way. And it just great that
Andy & Chris (06:14.699)
Very well.
Shameek (06:28.86)
I got to experience living in different countries and experiencing different cultures, different way of living, and that sort of forms you. And then around the age of 13 and stuff, I think my parents decided, look, I think we need to send our boys for education to the UK. All the family was here, education in India at that stage.
Andy & Chris (06:31.648)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (06:37.314)
Mmm.
Shameek (06:51.1)
You know, the classrooms have got 50 to 60 people in there. It’s survival of the fittest. So they thought it’d be much better here. The plan was at some point to come back. Yeah, yeah, so was an English speaking school. Yeah, yeah, it was an English speaking school. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Andy & Chris (06:54.402)
Hmm.
Andy & Chris (06:59.298)
Could you speak English? So when you came to UK 13, could you speak? No, I can’t. Is it still like that, Shmeet? Is it that sort of Indian education?
Shameek (07:11.132)
No, I think so. Look, 1 .5 billion population, right? It’s going to be a problem. And maybe why India is doing so well, because it is survival of the fittest. Everyone has to work so hard to get up ahead. And the best will always come up to the top, really, which is why we’re getting so many, know, India’s booming at the moment and doing so well with that population increase. But then, yeah, they sent us to the UK and they sent us to my uncle,
Andy & Chris (07:16.374)
Hmm.
Shameek (07:41.598)
who lived in Stockport, Manchester. And he was a dentist, hence the influence. and I think you must have heard this, right? In those, the eighties, from an Indian family, you literally had three choices. You either became a doctor, a dentist, or an accountant. Maybe you had to push a lawyer or something, but it was literally medic, dentist, accountant. And we both, my brother and I, looked at…
Andy & Chris (07:44.063)
Right, well.
What?
Andy & Chris (08:00.982)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Shameek (08:09.296)
being a doctor. But you know, we saw my uncle and I’m really, grateful to my uncle and my aunt for bringing us up. you know, they were only young as well and they sacrificed a lot to bring us up. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.
Andy & Chris (08:21.338)
So you were quite close as an extended family. You were quite close.
Shameek (08:29.505)
I lost my train of thought there. I’ll come back to it. Yeah, so we grew up, we got that, got influenced by my uncle. We saw he loved his job, loved his life, enjoyed what he was doing, and hence the influence. So said, okay, we’ll do dentistry. And then my brother, actually, he really wanted to do medicine till my parents literally said, no, you’re doing dentistry. So he said, okay.
Andy & Chris (08:35.606)
Yep.
Andy & Chris (08:40.108)
Mm
Shameek (08:52.648)
And he’s an orthodontist now. So we went on and did a masters and he’s an orthodontist that used to work with me before I saw my practice. And the funny story about it now there is that subsequently my uncle and aunt had two children who were very close to us while I used to do the nappies and everything and babysit them and take them. Neither of them became a dentist. So his two surrogate sons.
Andy & Chris (08:58.369)
Hmm.
Andy & Chris (09:01.889)
Hmm.
Andy & Chris (09:18.571)
That’s interesting,
Shameek (09:19.514)
became dentist but his own sons didn’t. One’s a British Airways pilot and the other is an actuary. So totally, totally different.
Andy & Chris (09:25.814)
Wow. It’s always intriguing and fascinating that we can take such a heavy influence from one person. Yeah, that’s amazing. Isn’t it? That you came over, you were in awe of your uncle. It had served him well, it’s a profession. And that put you on a path, it put your brother on a path. it’s kind of, given there are so many people and so many influences out there, one person can have such an impact on our future. Is your wife a dentist, Shemek, or anything?
Shameek (09:50.108)
No, no, no, So she had the most amazing job. She actually worked for Capital Radio. So she was like a promotions manager during the era of Chris Tarrant and Dr. Fox and actually, yes, yes, Houston Tower. And then they moved to Leicester Square. Actually, on the day we got married, they actually did a 15 minute monologue on her about getting married and what was I getting into?
Andy & Chris (09:56.987)
cool.
Andy & Chris (10:02.93)
brilliant. Was that where they were, the Houston Tower? On the Houston Road? Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy & Chris (10:17.194)
Wow. I bet she’s got some brilliant stories.
Shameek (10:23.292)
When she let Honest to God, I would have because it was brilliant because you know, she would just literally because she used to be in charge of the OBS, which was the Oprah broadcast. So she would call me up from Monaco saying, look, actually, we’ve just finished. Chris Stans just finished the OBS at the Grand Prix. Why don’t you fly over? We’ve got the stateroom in the yacht and you can stay with me. Or I’m in Aspen skiing or do you want tickets to this or I got tickets to this. I got to go shopping today for 10 Chanel glasses and 10 Gucci handbags to give away.
Andy & Chris (10:41.735)
wow.
No… Flam.
Shameek (10:53.496)
So yeah, she had an amazing job. But as soon as we had kids, think her main regret was like her parents worked very, very hard when they came. They came with nothing. when we left Uganda…
Andy & Chris (10:53.921)
Wow.
Andy & Chris (11:03.478)
Mm
Shameek (11:06.51)
We left with nothing really, literally what you could carry. So they were, and she just felt the loss. She said, I hardly ever saw them and I don’t want my kids to have that. as soon as we, and we started off with a twin girl. So it was with a bang and she wasn’t well and stuff. So she said, look, I’m not going back to work. My regret, because I really wanted her to go back to work because I wanted the tickets to everything.
Andy & Chris (11:07.638)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (11:15.445)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (11:22.56)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (11:31.584)
Yeah, you want all those Monaco trips. Yeah, I can understand that. Obviously it wasn’t anything to do with being selfish at all. was just frontier widening.
Shameek (11:34.852)
I love you, brother.
Shameek (11:39.292)
I’ll tell you a really funny story because you know Jensen Button has launched a whiskey. I got on a whiskey tasting session with him online. was an online, they send you a bottle and you taste and Jensen Button was doing the tasting with one of the whiskey guys and stuff and everything. And then I told him the story because before she picked me up from the airport, she picked up Jensen Button’s mother.
Andy & Chris (11:45.716)
Yep. Yeah.
Shameek (12:07.556)
and dropped him off to Jensen Button’s yacht at that time. And he was just killing himself. says, yes, I used to own a yacht in those times. says my life’s totally changed now.
Andy & Chris (12:11.553)
No.
Andy & Chris (12:21.648)
wow, wow. Brilliant. That’s a bit random isn’t it? An ex formula one driver that probably not many people remember is launching a whiskey. It’s a bit interesting isn’t it? We should launch one. I was going to say it’s become very popular hasn’t it? We a dental whiskey or something.
Shameek (12:31.269)
Yeah.
Shameek (12:38.94)
So know I run a, Chris, you know I run a, with Mike Gao, we run a Facebook group, which is the Dentistry Whiskey Appreciation Society. And we have three casts that we’ve sourced and we’ve got some whiskey maturing in it. So it’s seven years. I just did a tasting, I think it needs another couple of years till we bottle it. We’ve got about 650 liters.
Andy & Chris (12:46.722)
There we go.
Andy & Chris (13:01.858)
wow, brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, we should call it like endo. It’ll be the endo of you. The endo of you, yes, there we go. When you talking early on, were saying about meeting people and when your daughter was on her internship, she kind of took that spirit and walked around and talked to people. You’re somebody who is incredibly well connected in dentistry. You kind of know everybody. Based on…
conversation you have, the people you see, what would you say is the biggest challenge facing dentists at the moment? Not an easy question I appreciate.
Shameek (13:39.204)
It sort of probably doesn’t connect with the networking and stuff or anything, but the biggest challenge at the moment I see is social media, actually, the expectations. I think for young dentists, what they see and what they want to do, they’re trying to run before they can walk. So I think that’s just one of my bug bears there.
about it that is what I see, you know, because they obviously see what’s happening in social media. They see these amazing cases. They see these amazing lifestyles and they want it now. And they forget that most of these dentists are 15, 20, 25 years down the line.
You know, these things will come, but it takes time. You know, for me, you know, the message that I would love to give them is the Kaizen philosophy. I don’t know if you heard of Kaizen, but basically it’s not about making big leaps forward, but rather making small things better in small ways every day. And you will get there. So for me, I think that that’s the big thing. And the other thing at the moment, I think is recruitment. I think nurses, my gosh.
Andy & Chris (14:29.184)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andy & Chris (14:38.316)
Hmm.
Shameek (14:48.12)
since Brexit and stuff, think every practice that I know is clamoring for nurses at the moment. any good nurses now is like going into local agencies because they can see how much money they can make there.
Andy & Chris (14:54.455)
Hmm.
Andy & Chris (15:00.266)
Yeah, someone else is telling us that and they can make so much money locum -ing them as opposed to being employed.
Shameek (15:06.176)
So that’s the thing. But, you know, I think for me, yeah, that’s what is social media. I think it’s the expectations. I mean, it’s not just them, right? I’m gonna really digress here a little bit as well as I’m gonna go back a little personal stuff is it’s for everyone. I everyone, it’s all about living up to expectations. You know, what people expect of you and that you have to live up to that. But…
Andy & Chris (15:13.1)
Hmm.
Shameek (15:34.276)
Worse than that, expectation that you put on yourself. I think most of us and I myself put so much expectation on me. mean, this is something I was actually just thinking about the other day because it came up saying, what we’re doing for New Year’s Eve and things like that. I love New Year’s Eve. It’s the best day for me. We celebrate with family. We have a big knees up. It’s about…
Andy & Chris (16:00.78)
Party time, love New Year.
Shameek (16:00.976)
What a wonderful year you’ve had and all of that. So it’s amazing. I love New Year’s Eve. But then the worst day for me is New Year’s Day. Because you’ve got a new year. How do you top the previous year? So suddenly I’ve just put a huge amount of pressure on myself to say, hang on, how am I going to top this? And I get the blues really badly because I’m suddenly starting to panic to think, what am I going to do this year to top the last year? And I think that that’s something that
Andy & Chris (16:28.034)
you
Shameek (16:30.766)
All of us have learned, you we’ve got to learn that, do not worry about that. That’s the hardest thing not to worry.
Andy & Chris (16:36.438)
That is internal pressure and expectation, isn’t it? That’s self -inflicted. Which is hard. And like you say, that then gets amplified with the things that we see on social media.
Shameek (16:40.783)
Yeah
It’s.
Shameek (16:48.422)
Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I’m probably a…
Andy & Chris (16:52.874)
It’s a bit like the old YouTube, wasn’t it? Do you remember all the YouTube millionaires in the early days? then there was loads of people, that’s what they wanted to do. I can sell any old shite on YouTube and obviously become really wealthy. And the answer is, it doesn’t quite work like that. Just because you’ve got stuff on social media doesn’t actually mean that it’s just going to be a of work. lots of young people, they say they’d like to be an influencer when they grow up.
obviously know exactly what that is, what it entails, but that’s just become the language of what it is people are aspiring to be. don’t want to be a train driver anymore or a dentist. just want to be that Whereas you should be. You’re a dentist, qualifying from guys back in 93. your MFGDP in 98, sports dentistry MSc in 2022 and your ICD fellowship in 23.
Shameek (17:24.165)
It has, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shameek (17:36.772)
You’ve done your research.
Andy & Chris (17:45.932)
The sports dentistry bit really intrigues me because that is a proper niche. Yeah, well, talk yourself out. Yeah. Can you kind of talk us through what sports dentistry is? mean, the things that kind of jumped to mind for me are perhaps, know, clenching, trauma, mouth guards. But I’m sure there’s a whole lot more to it than that. What does sports dentistry encompass?
Shameek (18:06.204)
Do you want me to start with how I got into it first or?
Shameek (18:11.78)
So basically, you you’re probably right. I love sports, right? I go to a lot of sporting events and my son is very sporty. He was football academy, cricket academy. So I spent a lot of time on the sidelines watching him play, watching others play and seeing what’s happening. And I have a passion. I used to play a lot as well when I was young. I was actually a captain of football, captain of cricket when I was young and then obviously got old and…
Andy & Chris (18:15.158)
Yeah.
Shameek (18:42.19)
unfit. Learned about drinking and girls and yeah it all went to pot. Totally sidetracked yeah. So I thought hang on and then this sports dentistry thing came. I just saw something about it from the UCL and stuff and we were actually the first Kahoot. were actually, there’s five of us, were the first people in the whole world to have done a masters in sports dentistry.
Andy & Chris (18:42.754)
As we all do. And slower.
Ha ha ha ha! Side tracks.
Shameek (19:10.76)
And I thought, my God, what better? You love sports, you love dentistry. The best thing would be to combine the two. And I was treating a few athletes, a few footballers at that time. And my idea was to then go and become the dentist for a couple of the Premiership clubs if I can. But then the whole COVID thing hit.
Andy & Chris (19:30.028)
Yeah.
Shameek (19:34.688)
and then Tooth Angel came about and stuff. So that’s taken a little bit of a backseat at the moment. I also have in the middle of designing and developing a mouth guard that I want to launch. again, it’s taken a little backseat because obviously you can only do so much and I want to concentrate on the priorities at the moment.
So yeah, that was the whole thing and I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed it. Really, really good fun. Made some amazing friends, learnt a lot. And you know, it’s like any speciality, right? Any general dentist can do some basic orthodontics, can do root canal treatment, endodontics, can do periodontics. And it’s the same with sports dentistry. Most dentists will be able to treat athletes and be fine, but to get that…
extra bit of care with someone who’s done a masters who knows that a little bit more extra that can treat the athletes properly. I mean, here’s an interesting fact. You you would think in 2012 at the London Olympics, 30 % of the visits to the medical center were due to dentally related events. It was only second to musculoskeletal problems. How bizarre. Most of them are from other countries and stuff because they don’t think teeth are important. And for elite athletes,
Andy & Chris (20:40.546)
Whoa, a third.
FLEET!
Shameek (20:51.964)
when it’s marginal gain, having pain, having toothache or gum disease.
Andy & Chris (20:54.284)
Mm.
Andy & Chris (20:58.05)
I thought you were going to say they all went home with beautiful composite bonding and whitening. They all look great. That’s interesting isn’t it? Wow, 30 %! And we all know what toothache life is, it’s distracting and debilitating. So if you’re trying to perform at a high level, the last thing you want is that going on.
Shameek (21:01.788)
No, no, it was all about getting them out of trouble and pain. 30%. Yeah.
Shameek (21:22.426)
No, exactly, there’s a famous story of Mo Farah missing an important event because he had a dental abscess and he actually fainted in his bathroom and he had to be airlifted. They thought it was something else, but it turned out to be an abscess in his tooth that caused it and caused him a little systemic confection.
Andy & Chris (21:32.31)
Bye.
Andy & Chris (21:38.444)
So is that things like say, this is my ignorance of sports dentistry. So is this something like, know, checking maybe that their jaw alignment is correct or that their bite is correct so as that it doesn’t cause upset or whatever? I’m fascinated,
Shameek (21:55.324)
So yes and no as well. everything, it can encuff everything from basic checks to let them know how to brush properly and look after their teeth. A lot of them don’t even know because they’re constantly having sugar drinks, gels, things like that, that these are bad for you.
Andy & Chris (22:10.408)
That’s interesting. Wow.
Shameek (22:11.232)
So we see a lot of erosion, nutrition, obviously a lot of them grind their teeth, a lot of them vomit to get their weight right, because obviously it’s a big competition and it’s a factor, and then they get a lot of erosion. a lot of it is just educating them. But then obviously there is this whole big after stuff as well about dealing with trauma, concussion, and mouth guards, all the different types of mouth guards and you know.
Andy & Chris (22:22.306)
Wow.
Andy & Chris (22:34.556)
Mmm. Yep.
Andy & Chris (22:39.263)
I was just thinking, it’s funny, I used to do lot of know, and I mean, you know, four hours a day or something. And I was just thinking, it’s something I’d never really thought about, but I suppose you’re opening and swallowing chlorine water. It’s fascinating, it? I just think, yeah, I hadn’t really thought about stuff like that. It’s just good to have a conversation, because like I is, it is. Don’t think about it. Just don’t think about it at all. No, no, but to offer that extra level care.
Shameek (23:01.78)
But honestly, this will make you laugh. Obviously, I have treated a few high profile footballers and stuff and everything. But do they care about the health? No, they want their cosmetics. The first thing is, no, can you sort that chip out? I said, no, no, you got like a big hole there and stuff. No, no, we can do that next time.
Andy & Chris (23:15.922)
I want nice smiley teeth for when I win my medal.
Andy & Chris (23:22.242)
Yeah, I just want to look good. I just want to look good. When I’m on the podium with my medal. So aside from the sports side, you were a principal of a practice for 18 years, is credit to you for getting that far. We have this notion that quite often practice owners start to suffer fatigue around about 10 to 12 years into ownership and they just find that the whole thing’s a bit of a grind.
Shameek (23:26.349)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (23:44.662)
but you sold your practice, but you continue to work on in that same practice in an associate capacity. How have you found that transition? Because we speak to lots of people who’ve bought a practice, we hear the journey going from associate to principal, but not so much the other way around. So how have you found that?
Shameek (24:01.82)
You know what, so the first year was difficult, right? Because, know…
Andy & Chris (24:05.409)
Yeah
Shameek (24:06.656)
whatever you say and stuff, that’s your baby that you’re giving away, right? It’s another child. I call it my fourth child because, you know, actually the practice came before all my kids even. So it was my first baby really. So, you know, I likened it to giving your daughters away at marriage. And it’s a very bittersweet moment, right? You know, it’s going to happen, but you are losing a daughter. So that’s what it was like. So the first year was tough.
Andy & Chris (24:09.472)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mmm. Mmm.
Andy & Chris (24:17.505)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (24:24.875)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (24:28.288)
Mm.
Andy & Chris (24:33.984)
Don’t make as much money though, do you? I said you don’t make as much money when you give your daughter away.
Shameek (24:34.601)
and now I’m absolutely, what was that?
Shameek (24:45.344)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, fair enough. No, but it’s the best thing I did. Absolutely loving it. I’ve sold to Coliseum, who actually have been very good to me. know, they’ve left me to run things as they were and…
Andy & Chris (24:46.838)
Sorry I interrupted you this week.
Ha!
Shameek (25:10.17)
You know, obviously it’s never going to be totally the same, but they’ve been a good company to work for and work with. And I’ll listen to you.
Andy & Chris (25:16.118)
Yeah. Nice to hear that. Yeah, it is. Nice to hear.
Shameek (25:20.378)
And then we have a good relationship. I have to admit, they do leave me alone and we just get on with it. And now I don’t have to deal with the admin, the HR, the CQC. I can just come in and see my patients and look after them. So it’s the best of both worlds at the moment. So yeah, for me, it’s been a great, journey.
Andy & Chris (25:35.019)
Mm.
Yeah
Andy & Chris (25:41.932)
Good, good. It’s a common story, isn’t it? A lot of people who sell practices, they love dentistry and their patients, but they hate all the other stuff that comes with it. yeah. And it’s obviously, it’s freed you up. I mean, you’ve always been very committed to your ongoing learning. And we’re to come on to Tooth Angel, your new venture in a second. But you’ve been a very big supporter and heavily involved in the Koi Centre over in Seattle. And then you were there quite recently.
Shameek (25:51.324)
Totally.
Andy & Chris (26:09.76)
What’s your take on the US approach to learning? I’m particularly interested in this is kind of the Dentology, Business of Dentistry podcast. What’s their take on business learning in the US? How do they approach it compared to how we approach it?
Shameek (26:23.462)
So, you know, actually, bizarrely, I think whether I don’t know whether they learn from a young age, I think, but they’re a lot more business savvy than we are. All the Americans, they’re very commercial. So I think business does take a big priority for them. Education wise, yeah, I mean, I have to admit, you know, there’s some great education in the UK. But having people like John Coys, Frank Spear, Pete Dawson.
I mean, these guys are the giants of dentistry and to be able to go and learn from them, it’s been a privilege. mean, it’s the being part of the Koi Center is the single most important thing that I’ve done in my dental career. It’s what made me the dentist that I am actually. I can go as far as I say that and the friends I’ve made and the network I’ve created because of that has been second to none. So I would highly, highly, highly recommend that.
for sure. And John’s such an amazing man. I mean, that guy, I mean, it’s not a brain, it’s a computer in there. It’s unbelievable how he can speak, sit and just speak for three days at a time is unbelievable. And you know, there’s no paper he’s not read. You can’t win an argument with him.
Andy & Chris (27:28.681)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (27:41.282)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (27:45.506)
It’s amazing that considering what you’ve done for it to be that sort of massively high up in the list of priorities.
Shameek (27:53.272)
No, no, it gave me, you know, I’m gonna, what happened was, you know, this is a story I’ve told a couple of times as well, and things is that…
in the 2005, sixes and stuff when the veneer revolution was coming and Larry Rosenthal came and they were doing veneers and stuff. And I did his course, I went to him and I got to give him kudos as well for changing how we look at aesthetics because we’d never looked at aesthetics before. Before then, I thought I was a good dentist because I didn’t help my patients. I was gentle and nice, right? Nothing to do with doing amazing cosmetics or amazing restorative work. It was all about…
Andy & Chris (28:08.812)
Hmm… Lovery.
Shameek (28:32.676)
how I made my patients feel, which is very, very important. But that to me was the big criteria. But after that I was looking, my God, there is so much I don’t know. But then I was intelligent enough to know that it’s all good making everything look pretty. We want to make sure it stays there. So you’ve got to learn occlusion. So which is why then I went to learn from Dawson, Coice, and learn about occlusion to make sure that everything I was doing was staying put and lasting.
Andy & Chris (28:36.195)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (29:01.177)
Fall out.
Shameek (29:01.32)
And that to me was like a big eureka moment. the whole, Coise Teaching Centre is just an experience. I’ve never experienced anything like that. The customer service there is unbelievable.
Andy & Chris (29:15.046)
I remember Frank, so Frank or Frank Taylor, what was that? He went to some place, it was really sort of like Frankfurt, was it the Panky Institute or something? I don’t know if it’s still around, I assume it probably is, but he went over there to sort of learn, he said, know, to learn about.
Shameek (29:25.594)
Yeah. Yeah.
It’s still around. It’s still around. Yeah.
Andy & Chris (29:35.446)
dentistry and he said it was it was so enlightening which obviously sounds pretty similar to the your sort of moment almost like your nirvana moment big halo I’ve suddenly got the hang of it that’s amazing it’s nice to hear as well it is nice to hear and then
Shameek (29:45.126)
Hahaha
Andy & Chris (29:52.63)
When you sold your practice, part of that was to free you up to do other things. And we had a very memorable conversation in an airport lounge in Chicago where you told me about this idea that you had at the time, which was this new range of dental products, which has morphed into Tooth Angel. So can you tell us about what Tooth Angel is, the inspiration for it, how it works with dental practices? Just give us a flavor and the backstory on that one.
Shameek (30:20.208)
Yeah, no, no, so excited to introduce Tooth Angel. It’s a brand that merges luxury with sustainability. know, because self -care should benefit not just us, but the planet too.
Andy & Chris (30:33.942)
No, we’ve all got ring doorbells. It’s your Amazon delivery.
Shameek (30:43.836)
So, anyway.
Andy & Chris (30:44.988)
It’s live, and it’s real. they’re keen.
Shameek (30:52.026)
Is there a pause on this? No, just ignore it.
Andy & Chris (30:57.354)
Either way, you can answer it, we’ll just edit it out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course we We can start the question again about it, too, thank you a bit.
Shameek (31:00.08)
Yeah, can you?
Andy & Chris (31:12.044)
That’s brilliant. That’s a first. I reckon we keep it in. No, that’s really an end point. That is funny.
Have you got your delivery? yeah, you know what Sheree, we’ve done about 150 of these, that’s never happened. That’s the first time. That’s the first time we’ve The first time someone’s got to break away to have the Amazon delivery. brilliant. Must be alcohol. We’ll go back to it. I’ll do a couple of seconds and then you’ll start.
Shameek (31:29.626)
Is he still laughing?
Shameek (31:41.306)
It really was a delivery but needed a bloody signature.
Andy & Chris (31:53.854)
So yeah, so tell us more. Let’s get the back story on tooth angel.
Shameek (31:58.278)
So yeah, actually, I’m really excited to introduce Tooth Angel. It’s a brand that merges luxury with sustainability because, you know, self -care should not just benefit us but the planet. And this all actually started when, like many of us, I was watching Netflix during COVID and I watched Sea Spirit Sea, Plastic Ocean, and I was absolutely shocked about the amount of plastic in our oceans. I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but…
Andy & Chris (32:19.884)
Yeah.
Shameek (32:27.868)
there’s a fact now that by 2050, there’s gonna be more plastic in our ocean than fish by weight. And that was just literally a shocking fact. Absolutely shocking. So I thought we have to be part of the solution, not the problem. So I went around, I did a lot of research. And you know, don’t know if you’re aware, two billion plastic toothbrushes are thrown away.
Andy & Chris (32:36.149)
scary.
Shameek (32:56.922)
in the US alone at all. So that was literally shocking. So I had to say, ooh, we need to come up with something. And people would think, bamboo toothbrushes. But bamboo toothbrushes are not the solution. The more I looked into it, the more I saw that, no, that’s not the solution. Now, don’t get me wrong. I support everything that will stop plastic getting into the oceans. But.
Bamboo toothbrushes are sugar and starch, they’re made of wood. They absorb moisture, so they’re mold. So who wants to put a moldy piece of wood in their mouth? And I if you’re aware, the bristles are not biodegradable. So you actually have to snap the head off, put the handle in your compass hip, and the head goes on to your normal waist. And not many people do that. So the whole thing is a waste.
Andy & Chris (33:40.95)
think there’s two issues here on Shimiko. think one, people wouldn’t have known that. And two, can people be bothered? And three, aren’t they strong enough? Yeah.
Shameek (33:46.053)
Yeah.
Shameek (33:50.684)
It’s true as well. Plus, all of it comes away from faraway countries. So just the cloud animations negate any use they have as well. So to me, that was not the solution.
Toothpaste tablets, love the concept, but I like toothpaste and the people I talk to love toothpaste. So I wanted to do something with toothpaste. So I went traveling. I went to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, manufacturers, read a lot of research papers until we came up with solutions. And now we have the Tooth Angel toothbrush, which is a recyclable plastic handle, but with refillable heads. So you actually remove the heads.
and replace them, but you keep the handle for life. And that’s a 92 % plastic saving. So that’s huge. Plus the bristles are carbon activated. So they’re anti -odor, antibacterial, humidity regulating, negative ion releasing and soft. So they don’t do any harm to your, damage to your gums or teeth. So everyone that’s been using them has absolutely been loving it and stuff. But you know, I think the question will obviously straight away come to your head is, yeah, but it’s still plastic.
But this is where it all gets really interesting because, you know, we have some great people as part of the team and stuff. you know, everything we’re going to do was going to be a research base. September 2020, Ashley from UCL Eastman and Brett Duann from Trinity College Dublin did a series of papers in the British Dental Journal, which actually compared plastic manual toothbrushes, plastic manual toothbrushes with replaceable heads, bamboo toothbrushes and…
electric toothbrushes and they found plastic toothbrushes with removable heads were the best for the environment and the associated human health. So it was just mind blowing by far. So we’ve suddenly got research behind us as well. And that was really, really good. And then, you know, the other question that begs is why manual, you know, when everyone’s recommending electric? good question. Because Consumer Reports says 58 % of the population use a manual toothbrush.
Andy & Chris (35:35.606)
Mm. Wow.
Andy & Chris (35:49.248)
Mm.
Shameek (35:57.852)
So that’s 30 million people in the UK still use a manual toothbrush. So if you like a manual toothbrush, I think we’ve got one of the best ones out there. And plus, when we were asking people and stuff, nearly everyone who has an electric toothbrush has a manual as a backup when the electric either runs out of battery, honks out when they’re traveling. Yeah. When you go on holiday. Absolutely. So then if you’re having it, then have your toothbrush manual as a backup with
Andy & Chris (35:58.145)
Mm.
Andy & Chris (36:13.794)
Well I don’t. But when you go on holiday, you chuck the man in your wash bag and…
Shameek (36:26.16)
removable heads so that you don’t even have to buy another toothbrush. Just go to buy the heads again.
So it works really well. then obviously, actually the funny bit was that one of the things that I really wanted was I love cinnamon, right? So I wanted a cinnamon floss. So I wanted to create a cinnamon floss. And again, when it manufactured, we did it. And we have the softest, fluffiest, four -headed rise of floss, cut it with hydroxyapatite and xylitol that we’ve done. And honestly, all the hygienists are absolutely loving it. There’s not one hygienist that I’ve given it to that’s wanted to hand it back to me. They’ve all nicked it from me and saying, we’re keeping this.
Andy & Chris (37:01.803)
Haha.
Shameek (37:01.918)
So yeah, it’s an amazing, John Coice actually called it the best floss he’s ever used.
Andy & Chris (37:08.354)
Wow. Well, I’m a small part in Tooth Angel and I went to Canada recently to see some guys and I took some of the stuff out with me and I took some of the floss and I gave it to one of the guys out there and he banged on about it so much that he’s actually ordered, I think you sent them out recently, but he’s ordered a bunch more and there is something about…
Shameek (37:26.746)
He has, has, he He said he absolutely loves it. He said he’s tried so many flosses and this is by far the best.
Andy & Chris (37:32.158)
Yeah and there is something about the inflated nature of that floss which is quite unusual.
Shameek (37:38.165)
And the biggest kudos is when we went to the symposium, John Coys actually put the Tooth Angel brush, the floss, the toothpaste in his manual as best products actually. He’s actually rated the manual toothbrush as the top two. That and the Nimbus, which is a good toothbrush as well. So I was very chuffed with that.
Andy & Chris (37:50.038)
well, that’s great.
Andy & Chris (37:56.726)
Yeah
Andy & Chris (38:00.01)
and from a dental practice point of view, how do they get access to it if they want to stock it in their practices?
Shameek (38:06.236)
So yeah, literally we have a website so you can order directly from them or there’s a Google order from that we can send them or they can obviously contact me. So that can be done. And just to say we’ve also got a toothpaste in sugarcane tubes. So these are 100 % recyclable and it’s got biomimetic hydroxyapatite, fluoride, xylitol, potassium citrate.
Andy & Chris (38:17.215)
Brilliant.
Shameek (38:30.21)
everything good and none of the bad stuff like no SLS, no titanium dioxide, no parabens, no BPA and again, lots of lovely flavors. And a breath spray as well.
Andy & Chris (38:40.71)
From a low SLS point of view, I know you’re saying about toothpaste taps. I think we quite like foaming stuff, don’t we? You know, think we like shampoo foams when it’s normal. Yeah, we like toothpaste foams. How do you kind of get around that? How does that get managed?
Shameek (38:59.854)
So there are other products, not quite as foamy as SLS, but it still gives you a decent foam so that you get that lovely effect. Because you’re right, when we did our market research and stuff, they all said, hang on, I need it foaming. So we got a coconut -based one, sodium cocosulfate, which actually forms really, really nice. actually, most people who have tried it seem to be really, really happy with it.
Andy & Chris (39:04.545)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (39:08.906)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andy & Chris (39:23.232)
Hmm.
Shameek (39:24.124)
obviously won’t get that huge froth, which doesn’t really help anyway, just that feeling that we used to from SLS. it’s, that’s right. You feel like, that feels good. because it’s got such great flavors, that English wild mint and the cinnamon mint, your mouth just feels fresh for hours afterwards, actually. I’ll tell you a very good story. So you know, it’s got biomimetic hydroxyapatite. So I don’t know if you know much about hydroxyapatite.
Andy & Chris (39:26.41)
Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. He’s doing something. Yeah.
Andy & Chris (39:35.2)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andy & Chris (39:43.596)
Cool.
Andy & Chris (39:53.858)
Nope, go on tennis.
Shameek (39:54.46)
You know, so actually, so enamel is literally is 96 % hydroxyapatite and our dentin is about 60 to 70 % hydroxyapatite. So it’s a naturally occurring mineral and biomimetic means like nature basically. So what happened is the whole thing started in the seventies when NASA was sending astronauts up.
they were finding that these astronauts were losing minerals from their teeth and their bones. So they wanted to create something to replace those minerals. So they actually created something called brushite, which is hydroxyapatite, which is calcium phosphate water in a gel form. And that’s what they gave the astronauts to replace the minerals that they were losing. And then this Japanese company actually bought the rights of it to make it into a toothpaste. So it’s been around for a while, but now there’s a lot of
coming out that it’s actually just as good as fluoride as well.
Andy & Chris (40:51.208)
Well that’s interesting. That’s interesting. So in theory that could go into children’s toothpaste because obviously they don’t put fluorine in kids toothpaste because they tend to swallow it but if it’s naturally occurring it could go into kids toothpaste.
Shameek (40:57.862)
Correct? Absolutely. And you don’t have to worry about them so much more worrying for us. Yes.
Shameek (41:04.486)
Correct.
Absolutely fine. Yeah, there’s no harm. So that’s that’s the thing There you are
Andy & Chris (41:09.314)
Interesting. Very interesting. Very interesting. Look, I’ve learned something. Well, one many things. I would never be able to present that word again. Something boxel -o -dirty. Biomatic hydroxypiped. Hydroxyapatite. Well done Andy. That’s word about 74 inches. That would be one of those spelling bee questions. What’s the plan for the future? Where does Tooth Angel go?
Shameek (41:23.494)
Biomimetic hydroxyapatite, yeah.
Shameek (41:38.342)
So Tooth Angel will now, because of the whole coisting and stuff, it’s a lot of dentists in the US wanting dentists in Canada as well. So I think the plan would be to take it to the US and Canada. So that’s a big project, which undertaking. So I’m starting to work on that.
So that should be quite interesting. Watch the space. We’ll see what happens. But it’s exciting. It’s fun, right? I’m actually really enjoying it. It’s a passion project and, you know, hopefully we’re doing… Look, what I do want to reinforce is that all the products, all the two things are products. We’re clinicians, right? We are clinicians. So we want to make products that are actually good for you. So that’s the first and foremost. And then the sustainability is the kicker.
Andy & Chris (42:01.004)
Good, good.
Andy & Chris (42:07.146)
Now that’s good.
Andy & Chris (42:25.536)
Yeah, no, absolutely. Makes sense. It’s nice you say about you’re enjoying it as well. Yeah, definitely. What we started with, you do have a sense of joy and you seek out a sense of fun and bringing that into business is important because on the whole business, you you have hard days as well as good days. So the fact that you’re constantly looking to make it fun and there is joy in there.
I really matters and I think that does bring the right sort of people into your world as well. And it’s not greenwashing, sounds actually, that’s really good. Yeah. Yeah, so it’s brilliant in the fact of so many people profess but actually don’t.
Shameek (42:56.11)
No, no, that’s right. I didn’t want to talk about that, but I can do a whole lecture on that, on the greenwashing, the amount of greenwashing that’s going on with so many products at moment.
Andy & Chris (43:08.566)
when you really, really dig in, doesn’t deliver. But what’s quite nice is it’s quite interesting from a marketing point, I’m thinking, you you probably lead with the green, you know, with the sustainability and the fact it’s all right for you. Because people don’t really care about the it’s all right for you, but they’re probably more interested in the sustainability, aren’t they?
Shameek (43:24.848)
Yeah, but as a clinician, that’s what really excites me because these products we created are good for you, do help you. hopefully, sustainability is a great kicker that will help it as well.
Andy & Chris (43:35.063)
Hmm.
Andy & Chris (43:43.687)
Yeah, I think so. Good stuff. Shammi, we’ve got to the time where we need to ask you a couple of questions. Nobody gets to leave without answering them. First question for you is, you can be a fly on a wall. Where are you and who is there?
Shameek (43:59.236)
Yeah, I try to think about this because I know you’re gonna ask that and you know, literally I’m going with the first thought that came to me, literally. As you know, I’m a whiskey aficionado. I like whiskey, I collect, I drink and stuff. And to me it was like, I would love it when…
Andy & Chris (44:08.78)
Going to…
Shameek (44:23.046)
Friar John Core, who’s sort of the first recorded person to have made whiskey in Scotland. There are reports of Ireland doing it before, but I won’t get into that. I would love to be the fly on the wall when he had his first sip of whiskey. Just to see that feeling that, my God, they used to call it aquavite, which means water of life, right? To have that taste, to that Eureka moment, to say,
Andy & Chris (44:30.612)
okay.
Andy & Chris (44:46.647)
okay, right.
Andy & Chris (44:52.406)
Yeah.
Shameek (44:53.18)
whatever I created, something that is going to please generations and generations of people in the future and make them aficionados. 1494.
Andy & Chris (44:58.572)
Mmm.
Andy & Chris (45:03.968)
Yeah, what year was that? When abouts? When was that? So was it done? I don’t know, you might not know, you might know. Was it done as something religious or was it just something he just knocked up?
Shameek (45:14.3)
No, think it was recorded as the King James IV gave him malt barley to make it. But there is a record in 1405 in Ireland of a person dying from drinking too much aqua vitae. So that’s the only little reference there.
Andy & Chris (45:33.332)
Wow. really, well that’s interesting. I imagine in the early days it was more like moonshine than whisky. I bet it was coarse.
Shameek (45:39.364)
Yeah, I think so. yeah. But, you know, just to have thought of it, created it, and to have that amber lecture would have been quite interesting just to see that moment and be there.
Andy & Chris (45:46.782)
mmm yeah it’s amazing it’s all brilliant it would be even better if it was been like an accident you know like he just left it in a body because there’s some of those things aren’t they where they you know they just leave things and then they get around to like actually that’s all right yeah I think it sounds a bit like Louis Pasteur and penicillin doesn’t it yeah yeah or Post -it notes yeah the post -it notes it’s glues rubbish actually this is really quite a good idea
Shameek (45:54.779)
Yep.
Shameek (46:05.39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Shameek (46:13.882)
And as one of the other things as well, I did a gin diploma as well, how to make gin. At one point I wanted to open a gin distillery as well.
Andy & Chris (46:22.794)
Shemeek’s still at home. Is this where you are at the moment with all that stainless steel? I it could be like Shemeek’s concoction room. I’m just knocking up a few things around the corner. Lose yourself into a vat for good acoustics.
Shameek (46:32.156)
No, no, that’s a nice little wine cellar.
Shameek (46:43.726)
It is, that’s the acoustics coming through.
Andy & Chris (46:46.878)
I’ll follow up, if you could meet somebody, if you could sit down and surely it would be a nice glass of wine or whiskey, who would you like to meet given the opportunity?
Shameek (46:55.58)
You know, it’s like that’s then again a no brainer, but this time it’ll be surprised. It will be with a cup of masala chai. It will actually be my mom. She passed away in 2013 with leukemia and stuff, but I would love just to have another moment with her, just to be able to tell her because…
Andy & Chris (47:05.11)
Bye.
Andy & Chris (47:13.292)
Yeah.
Shameek (47:16.016)
You know what, as parents, especially their generation and stuff, their whole big thing was like, they want to get their kids married and happy and settled and stuff. And my brother wasn’t married then. So that was her biggest worry. And I would just want that moment to tell her that, I’m gonna get emotional. That no, yeah, that her, my brother.
Andy & Chris (47:31.594)
It worked out okay. Everyone’s okay.
Shameek (47:38.384)
has married a lovely wife, has a beautiful six -year -old daughter who is the apple of my dad’s eye, and that you can rest in peace, that her grandchildren, my children, are just doing amazingly well. They’re just about to all fly the nest, but we’re all very proud of them. And, you know, just so that she could have that peace and the fact that I can get one more hug from her.
Andy & Chris (47:44.661)
Yeah.
Andy & Chris (48:00.662)
Yeah, that’s lovely. Very sweet. Very sweet. Yeah. I’m sure she’d be very proud of her grandkids and her sons have grown up. It’s interesting that we’ve had a number of people who would like to meet either parents who died or grandparents that they never met or can’t really remember. It’s quite interesting. Yeah. Well, I that sense of belonging is where we come from, it? I suppose you can say we so isn’t it? Our family. Yeah, we owe so much.
Shameek (48:09.411)
No, exactly.
Shameek (48:24.224)
Exactly. whatever you say, whatever, whoever you mean and stuff, you know, they are your biggest influences, you know, you know, my dad, my mom, you know, they’re, they’re what made you. And you got to, you you, you know, you can’t forget that.
Andy & Chris (48:30.774)
Yes.
Andy & Chris (48:35.168)
Yes exactly.
Andy & Chris (48:39.008)
No, no. Shammiq, it’s been an absolute joy. Thank you, Tom. I always come away from conversations with you with so much more than I started. It’s always good fun. It really is. Look after yourself. We’ve got some dental events coming up in the next couple of months. So I’ll look forward to seeing you at those. But no, we appreciate your time today. Yeah. Thanks, Shammiq. Thanks a Infectious enthusiasm. No, not at all. We’ve loved it. We’ve loved it. Cheers, man. It’s been brilliant. Cheers. Ta -da.
Shameek (48:47.876)
No.
Shameek (48:57.36)
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thanks a lot for having me and stuff. See you guys.
